Not treating SPS for Red Bugs, Anyone?

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8151106#post8151106 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
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Stoney Mahony--



So if my first hand experience is different and I can live with red bugs does that make me wrong then?

Can nobody hear me???? It's not about if you can live with redbugs, I NEVER said that. Fact: Some, if not most corals can live and thrive w/ redbugs. Fact: Not ALL corals are completely unaffected by Red Bugs. If your saying that RB's will have no ill effect on any species of coral at any time then YES YOU ARE WRONG! Im sorry to be the one to **** all you guys off, but you either can't open your ears or you don't want to. From a scientific stand point it is absolutly ridiculous that you guys think you know all there is to know about this critter and what effects it has on all species of coral in the world. You are actually telling me that you know the Biology of this organism which you don't. You don't even have a freakin scientific name for it! Im tierd of arguing about the same thing I see everyone else argue about...Rbs or no RBs. If you can't read what im saying, oh well. Go back and look up all the rb threads and your gonna see a few devoted redbug keepers and MANY that have had them, killed them, and were much happier after the fact. I mean no one answered my question...How come people arent trading for these guys? Paying for them? It's like people that don't believe cigs kill..they just don't want to come to terms with it.

CLCKWRK, MENORD(my vote for next TOTM), BLSTRAVLER- AWESOME TANKS!!! That doesnt change, just don't agree that the bugs have 0 impact on ALL species of corals.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8150938#post8150938 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clkwrk
I agree nothing like first hand experience and I have got rid of tthem and did live red bug free for some time . The difference has not been enough to make me treat my display again .

So there was a difference??? You said that there were NO effects on ANY corals!!!:eek2:
 
I just reread my posts in this thread and no where did I say no effects.

DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8150938#post8150938 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by clkwrk
Sorry after having them and getting rid of them to having them again latter down the road with NO PROBLEMS your not going to change my mind .

Ok, so you said you had NO problems which I take as NO effects with any of your coral. What did you mean by that comment??? In the other thread you said: "I have no problems with PE day or night ...Sometimes I wish I had less PE so I can see the colors of the coral."

Your turning this personal and I just want to know why you are being so misleading??? I would even go as far as saying you are gloating about it saying you wish you had less PE. I mean im laughin my butt off reading this crap. It is alright that others have different opinions, you don't have to get so offended. Do you see how your comments can be interperted? What else could you possibly mean by having no problems??? I immediately take that as no effects on the corals. If there were problems, I would take that as it HAVING an effect on the corals. Singling me out and trying to call me a liar doesnt validate any of your points any more. Take a chill pill. :rollface:
 
there is no right or wrong way. just whatever works for you and makes you happy. Treating and killing the little bastages made me and my corals happy.. my experience...
 
Stoney Mahoney is right here. Saying you can live with them doesnt mean anything. Yes, maybe the benefits of getting rid of them doesnt outweight losing your acro crabs or whatever, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt still crack down on these things in every way we can.


The affect corals in a negative way. Period. If you do it right, you'll never have to treat for them in a tank. I just dont see any reason to let a parasite in.


Yes, you can live with them. You could live with herpes too. THat doesnt mean you shouldnt do everything to protect yourself from it/them.
 
can you folks that are "living" with red bugs post some pics of the corals with the bugs on them?

These tanks look way too nice to have red bugs....i had them and my tank looked like crap....and yes parameters were correct.

clkwrk....i do see in your photo....How's this for a healthy non mille/tort/chips/pocci/BN/stylo/monti
Bottom coral on left looks like there a few on that one...

anyone else......

thanks
 
poknsnok-

You have said it best-

there is no right or wrong way. just whatever works for you and makes you happy. Treating and killing the little bastages made me and my corals happy.. my experience...

As did taflaw

Long-term ramifications for treating red bugs with dog worm medication is unknown and I personally seen acros thriving with red bugs in the system. Until scientific data states that red bugs harm acros, I am not willing to kill all the other inhabitants like shrimp, amphipods, copepods, and crabs in my system. I am all for QT or treating incoming corals .

I appreciate both of your comments, and you hit the nail on the head this hobby is about experiences and what works for you. When I started this thread I believe I said I am here to learn not to get blasted. I am looking for others experiences that have red bigs; In a few posts this has turned upside down totally.

clkwrk and menard both have amazing tanks, going after them or trying to relate red bugs in their tank to a human STD is not why I started this thread. If you want to knock on someone pick me but going after clkwrk when he has posted picks of his tank and corals is not what RC is about nor is picking apart a sentence to justify your stance of "red bugs are bad" in order to prove that someone did have ill effects when they said they did not, is in fact putting words in someones moth; despite what you think.

Can we please get back to why I started this thread, I want to hear form people that HAVE RED BUGS IN ORDER TO LEARN SOMETHING.

Racenrich, I'll post some pics once my MH come on but I will warn you now my picture skills are not the greatest. Not sure if I will be able to get a good enough close up shot to show the red bugs; but I will do my best. I even got a new lense for christmas this past year for close up shots and I'm still like an elephant in ballet shoes when it commes to close up shots.


Again, let's keep this to as learning experience instead of going after those that live with Red Bugs why not ask them about their tanks and how they care for them, maybe there is something to be learned about how they are able to live with the bugs. One thing we all need to realize is that these things are in the wild so they will never go away and as Borneman even says on his web site-


Evidence exists that resistance to ectoparasiticides occurs, and the development of doramectin is an example of a product developed because of resistance. I have found many references to suggest that arthropods can become desensitized, resistant or immune to various pesticides or parasticides. This has important implications in the use of drugs and chemicals to treat Tegastes infestations. It is very important to make sure that any treatments impart a 100% kill rate using a given substance. If resistance genes are turned on or evolve, the treatments now available may soon become ineffective as the parasites are transferred between tanks. My most recent experience whereby dose levels that had previously effected a 100% kill rate and left some copepods alive may be an indication that some resistance is already developing.

If in fact desnsitization does continue we will all be coming to people like clkwrk and menard to learn from them. This is one of the biggest reasons I am interested in seeing how to live with these things in my tank. I can't help to feel that if the wild reefs can live with these bugs and if we are trying to replicate what happens in a reef in an aquarium in our house then should our reefs then not be able to live with the red bugs as well?
 
"clkwrk and menard both have amazing tanks, going after them or trying to relate red bugs in their tank to a human STD is not why I started this thread. "

CLWRK and Menard both have amazing tanks DESPITE redbugs. The fact that their tanks are great and they have redbugs doesnt mean that the redbugs arent doing significant damage. It just means that their tanks are so well kept and their corals are so healthy that they dont do enough damage.
In most peoples tanks, thats not the case.

"Until scientific data states that red bugs harm acros, I am not willing to kill all the other inhabitants like shrimp, amphipods, copepods, and crabs in my system."


!!!!!! There have been a dozen or so papers cited in recent redbugs threads. Some of them peer reviewed in scientific journals. They harm acros. Period.


"Can we please get back to why I started this thread, I want to hear form people that HAVE RED BUGS IN ORDER TO LEARN SOMETHING."
You've heard from plenty of them. You want to hear from people that agree with you. You want your viewpoint backed up, nothing more.

Again, the fact that Menard's and Clkwrk's tanks are beautiful isnt evidence that redbugs dont harm corals. Its evidence that they are phenomenal coral keepers. The vast majority of tanks that have redbugs have seen negative affects.

Are you going to use Menard/Clkwkr as the rule? Or as the exception to the rule?

I certainly think hobbiests of that caliber are the exception.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8152193#post8152193 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichConley
Yes, you can live with them. You could live with herpes too. THat doesnt mean you shouldnt do everything to protect yourself from it/them.
This has to be the Quote of the Month!:lol:
 
!!!!!! There have been a dozen or so papers cited in recent redbugs threads. Some of them peer reviewed in scientific journals. They harm acros. Period.

So please post links to these papers, not to the threads, but to the actual papers. Please only post links to the the ones that have been peer reviewed and excepted into PAPER publication publication, not internet. Anyone can post something on the internet. I would also expect based your statment that you would be able to provide links to published works proving as you say "They harm acros. Period." in the wild, in the aquarium and as Bornemen did in a petri dish. To prove yourself you have to provide one from each that gives just proven scientific fact , Not just one study that happened inn a petri dish, if you can't prove all sides of the harmful effects then your statment "They harm acros. Period." is false. I am not trying to be a smart a$$ I am in fact really anxiuos to see this research because this would be the ultimate study proving there exact effects; I think everyone can agree with this.

Are you going to use Menard/Clkwkr as the rule? Or as the exception to the rule?

I am not using them as a rule I am trying to LEARN what they do that allows them to live with red bugs and continue to have steady well growing corals/tanks. The reason I seek this informaiton is because I have them and I am having no ill effects on any of my corals. So I am looking for any connection possible as to why some people are able to keep SPS corals with Red Bugs.

I certainly think hobbiests of that caliber are the exception.

So if you are saying that if you are a high level hobbiest then it is okay for you to live with the bugs, or as you said the exception; then does this mean that everyone else isn't on the same level, I think you just insulted a lot of people out there. Should we all not then, as I stated in my other posts, try to LEARN from what they do so we can all LEARN from it? So we can all become the exception and TEACH others how to be more capable of dealing with something that occurs in nature making it in fact something we should be able to deal with in our tanks.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8153470#post8153470 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler
So if you are saying that if you are a high level hobbiest then it is okay for you to live with the bugs, or as you said the exception; then does this mean that everyone else isn't on the same level, I think you just insulted a lot of people out there. Should we all not then, as I stated in my other posts, try to LEARN from what they do so we can all LEARN from it? So we can all become the exception and TEACH others how to be more capable of dealing with something that occurs in nature making it in fact something we should be able to deal with in our tanks.
Does your tank look like Menards? Or Clkwrks? Do you feel insulted if someone says their tank is nicer than yours? No, becuase their tanks are phenomenal.

Thats like someone saying your wife isnt as hot as Heidi Klum. I'm okay with that.

Think of it like pneumonia. For most of us, its just a bad cold. If you've got something that wears downt he system, it can kill you.

Their corals are strong enough that the redbugs dont cause much issue, most people's arent.


Red bugs are PARASITES. THeyre not symbiotes. Parasites, by nature, harm their hosts.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8152881#post8152881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler


clkwrk and menard both have amazing tanks, going after them or trying to relate red bugs in their tank to a human STD is not why I started this thread. If you want to knock on someone pick me but going after clkwrk when he has posted picks of his tank and corals is not what RC is about nor is picking apart a sentence to justify your stance of "red bugs are bad" in order to prove that someone did have ill effects when they said they did not, is in fact putting words in someones moth; despite what you think.

Yeah..I said they have awesome tanks a few times and I believe the Herpes reference was called a joke :). Im not going after anyone here and I was not "picking apart his sentence". Would you rather me copy the whole thread? I asked a simple question. If infact people are living with NO effects at all from them, I would like to know about it. If I ask him to clarify what he meant by NO PROBLEMS, there shouldnt be any problem. Maybe it was a misunderstanding but you two seem to be getting all bent out of shape over it. If you could take a step back for a sec and see where others are coming from........we just want to know how, see more proof, better pics, and find out answers b/c we have not had the same results...that is what you said you started this thread out for isn't it? We ARE and HAVE seen ill effects so thats why we compare/contrast results. THAT is the reason for RC's EXISTANCE! Asking for a straight answer is not considered offensive in the scientific community so Im sorry if you don't like it.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8152881#post8152881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler


Can we please get back to why I started this thread, I want to hear form people that HAVE RED BUGS IN ORDER TO LEARN SOMETHING.

I have had red bugs and reported my experiences but you obviously don't want to hear about them. Like I said earlier I will post pics when I get home and show you bad effects. I hope you will be open to the possibility......

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8152881#post8152881 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by blstravler


This is one of the biggest reasons I am interested in seeing how to live with these things in my tank. I can't help to feel that if the wild reefs can live with these bugs and if we are trying to replicate what happens in a reef in an aquarium in our house then should our reefs then not be able to live with the red bugs as well?

I think the difference between our tanks and the ocean is the size difference. When RB's are in the ocean, they have a ton more area unlike a tank which theoretically they could reach plague proportions if not kept in check. Like meynord said, he has some fish that seem to snack on them so that would probably help if your planning on living with them.
 
blstravelar, if you want info, do the legwork. Stop being lazy.


Tegastes acroporanus

Do a google search. Theres plenty of papers out there.
 
Stoney, I believe there are also a myriad of things that predate on these things in the wild. Also, in the wild, most corals are large, and mature.

In all but the biggest tanks around here, we're basically keeping frags. Even that 8"x8" colony is really just a frag.
 
blstravelar, if you want info, do the legwork. Stop being lazy.

RichConley-

I asked you to post the studies because you made the statement that they were bad "Period" making it seem that you had done the research, I would ask you again to post studies that back up this point from all 3 sides, labstudies, aquarium studies and wild studies.

I am not being lazy I have spent the time looking for the research. Trust me I just got out of the hospital after having major surgery and I have had nothing but time to look this stuff up and read the articles. I am not trying to argue but what I have found are controlled studies (lab studies) and I have also found aquarium research. The aquarium research is not always 100% in either direction there always seem to be exceptions. To be honest the lab studies I found were somewhat conclusive but a frag in a Petri dish is not a reprehensive study IMO, but still I know it isn’t necessarily wrong. I have yet to find any wild studies period except for a brief mention in a Borneman article but it had no study behind it, as stated by Borneman. This is what I really want to see…

If I could make any assumption (and I HATE using that word) it is that it seems that the red bugs are more like opportunistic feeders, if you have a coral that is not doing well they flock like seagulls over a garbage dump, easy meal. However my assumption seems to be nothing new to most people.

So I am guessing that if your corals are all doing well then what happens to the number of the bugs? I have noticed in my own tank that before I had surgery I had a ton of them everywhere but now I don't. Look this is what all has happened to me, like I said I have the time to write this out ----

I got involved in a large group buy and when the corals I ordered came in 1 of the 3 didn't look well. Unfortunately at the time I had just found out that day (same day the coral came in) that I had to have emergency surgery ASAP so I could not do my normal QT but I was able to do a short Interceptor dip but not my normal time frame for QT or dip. The next day I went into the hospital (to get fragged myself, though I didn't get to bring anything home...) the new coral from the group buy coral was half dead and covered in Red Bugs... I didn't see the bugs at all the day before. Now that sucked because I had no choice to leave my tank the way it was, my health is more important to me and my wife then my coral. I did take the coral out and chucked it, but that was all I could do, then I went to the hospital to get admitted. That was on 9/23. I was in the hospital for about 9 days. After I got discharged a few days later I noticed the bugs on a coral that was nearest to where I had put the infected coral in, and it was covered in Red Bugs. I was bummed out, this was one of my favorite corals, nice stag that I had grown from a 1 inch piece that is now about 6 inches with a ton of branches. I was able to get up about once a day and try to make the best observations possible, which wasn't easy because I could hardly bend over to get a good look. I did notice that the coral was not doing well and at this point and even today I can't lift anything over 10 pounds so I still couldn't do the treatment for them even if I wanted to, a water change for me would be impossible I have 40 staples in my belly right now, it sucks trust me. Then one day my wife was adding water to my holding container for top off water and noticed there was no air going into my skimmer (similar to a Deltec), no air no skimmate; I have no idea how long it was like this for if it had been that way since I went into the hospital we are talking a good 12 days. I had my wife clear the air line to my skimmer and in 2 days the bugs had moved away from the badly infested coral and since then (about 10 days time) numbers have gone down greatly. I can now only see maybe 1 or 2 bugs on some of the corals in my tank but not all. I think it has been well stated that they don't live on all corals, my milli's, digi's, and a few acro's (sorry not good with exact names) all have zero bugs on them. I will say though that every week there seems to be a slight rise in numbers maybe 3 to 4 bugs on each coral, but then it drops again a few days later to 1 or 2. I am guessing this is more of a life cycle issue. So here I am now and my tank is fine I do have bugs but have not noticed any damaged to my corals, PE is the same as it ever was, good during the day but always better at night. Colors are fine and I have seen excellent growth, the other 2 corals I got in the group purchase where frags and both are now encrusted and are doing very well. From time to time I see maybe one bug on them but never more then that.

So that's my story, any questions just ask.




Stoney Mahony-

I t would be great if you could post your pictures of before and after. If you don’t mind could you also post your tank param's as well?

I'll try and post pics tonight or tomorrow, depends how much energy I have and how much patience my wife has in helping me out.
 
I don't really wanna go thru this whole explantion again so here.

In this thread read the first post and if you feel compelled read further.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39956&highlight=living+with+red+bugs

Here is another old one Is there life with red bugs?
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=222075&highlight=living+with+red+bugs

Here is my own thread. Living with red bugs anything I am going to say here is covered there.
You can even see the same corals ;)
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=855806&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
 
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