Nuther vodka question

badger126

Member
So my tank looks like crap. Hair algae of multiple types everywhere! I've never had a tank where I couldn't get rid of this kind of problem with patience and regular water changes before. So I'm finally considering vodka dosing. Only problem is that my phosphate and nitrate levels read 0 on my test kits so I have nothing to go by. I'm sure they're there, just tied up in the algae. What would you guys do, suggestions? Start vodka dosing per instructions until algae starts to disappear then reduce dose? Or just more patience? Tank has been up since late Nov.

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Before anyone can give you the advise needed to curb your algae out break, there are key information we require from you...............here are just some. Others may add more

How big is your tank
are you running a sump, refugium, canister filter....etc
What type of circulation you have in main tank
are you running a skimmer and what size in relation to volume
What lights are you using
How long do you keep your lights on
Where is your tank situated - is it near a window or something
Did you ever use tap water
Are you using RODI and what is your TDS readings
Have you been doing regular water changes and how often
What salt are you using
Whats all your parameters like SG, ph, etc
Whats your livestock - fish and inverts
where did you get your live rock from
how did you cycle your tank
what do you feed or dose (corals or fish)
are you running any kind of GFO, rowaphos, chemipure....etc
are you running biopellets
Do you have chaeto

Don't know what else I forgot?

Anyone??
 
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I'd try vodka dosing or GFO. Spending a few minutes each week removing as much hair algae as is easy to get (if any) will help export nutrients, too. Either approach is likely to take weeks to see much in the way of effects.
 
Try Algaefix Marine. ;)

From your picture the algae is winning the battle. Algaefix doesn't kill all kinds of algae, but if it works on your's it will save you a lot of headaches.

To get rid of it you could go through these procedures, but no guarantee it will kill off your algae without a lot of elbow grease:

Algae control Program

There is no miracle cure for algae, dinoflagellate, cyanobacteria & diatom pests in a reef tank. :(

The bottom line is that you want to reduce nitrate, phosphate, dissolved organics and suspended organics. You need to say no to all pests present in your tank and all debris in your tank. Keep a spick and span tank including the sand bed and glass. This will need to be completed often to erradicate these type of pests.


There are a lot of hobbyists in your same position. Reducing your nitrate and phosphate levels to a zero reading will help in getting rid of many type of algae and/or cyanobacterial pests. IME, reducing nitrate and phosphate levels too low can kill or cause problems for many types of soft coral. Running GAC & GFO will all help in reducing the growth of these type of pests. In many cases they will not eradicate the pest even when phosphate and nitrate are extemely low. Vinegar dosing will help reduce the nitrate and phosphate levels also, but will not necessarily eradicate the pest either. It has been shown in research that vinegar will not promote cyano growth, whereas ethanol will.

A common problem is being able to identify your pest to a category correctly: true algae, cyano, dino, bacteria & other assorted pests that look similar. In many cases a micro look at your pest is best to properly ID it to one of these categories.

IMHO, if you are faced with an algae, cyanobacteria or dinoflagellate type pest problem, it is best to implement an a pest control program strategy:


1) Wet skimming with a good quality skimmer. Clean your skimmer cup at least once per week.

2) Reduce your nitrates and phosphates to a zero reading using the hobby grade test kits. See Randy's articles regarding this:

Phosphate and the Reef Aquarium
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/index.php

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm

3) Proper lighting. I find that the higher wavelength bulbs are less conducive to algae growth. I now run 20,000 K bulbs from using 10,000 K bulbs.

4) Proper day length is a good thing also. I would not run your lights for more than 12 hrs total. Keep in mind that light entering from a window nearby is added to this figure.

5) Running GAC is a good practice in my book. It will help reduce the total dissolved organic carbons in your tank water and this is a food source.

6) Proper 30% per month total water changes will help export the DOC as well as some of the pests in the water column. It will help maintain the micro-nutrients as well.

7) Physical removal of the pest by hand, scrubbing and siphoning is important as well. If the amount of pest in your aquarium is overwhelming, perhaps dealing with one section at a time is a better idea.

8) Proper water circulation in your tank to prevent dead zones. When dealing with cyanobacteria pests increasing the flow where it grows seems to help.

9) Use RODI water for all top-off, salt mixing, additive mixes... etc.

10) Dosing iron may have benefits for macro-algae, but if you are experiencing algae pest problems than I would stop dosing it as it can add to the problem in many cases.

11) If you are dosing other supplements such as vitamins, amino acids, or others that contain a mix of supplements other than the basic alk., calcium and magnesium, I would stop these until you gain control of your pest. This includes many of the store bought products with unknown ingredients. Dosing Vodka or vinegar to reduce your nitrates and phosphates would be an exception in my opinion.

12) Proper feeding habits. This can be the number one problem when trying to reduce your nitrate and phosphate levels. Use low phosphate fish foods.

13) IMHO, lighted refugiums may be a problem when trying to deal with an algae type pest problem. They are wonderful when it comes to reducing nitrates and phosphates. However, the light over most refugiums is conducive to the microalgae type pests. If the refugium becomes infested with a microalgae pest, I would clean it throughly of all pests as best as possible, remove the macro and turn off the lights until you gain control of your pest. Re-using the same macroalgae later may serve as a source for re-infestation of your pest.

14) Adding fish and other creatures that will eat your algae pest will help.

15) Running a diatom filter which has been suggested by Boomer, makes a lot of sense to me. It will help remove a lot of organic material in your water column.

16) Keep your sand bed clean if it is a shallow bed weekly by vacuuming it. Lightly vacuume deep sand bed surfaces.

17) Keep your tank glass clean all the way around regularly. Perhaps it will need to be done 2 to three times a week if growth is fast.

18) For some additional thoughts regarding switching an algae or cyano based system to a bacterial based system see this thread:

Why should you use just vinegar as your carbon source?
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2101969

19) There are other items that can be added to this list if others care too share and some of the items listed may be disputed.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________ _______


If after you have tried all these procedures and you are still loosing the battle, I would recommend that you initiate the use of AlgaeFix Marine for controlling hair algae, based on the reports I have seen in this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1595003

I hate to see anyone give up on this hobby due to algae type pest problems.
 
Thanks everyone! I can see some more info was warranted. I was specifically concerned with how to control the dose of vodka when there are no visible nitrates or phosphates, but I'm open to accept any other suggestions. I'll answer questions about my tank below, because that is a good list. I do have a decent amount of experience though, and have thought through most of this stuff, which is why I am interested in trying the vodka method.


Before anyone can give you the advise needed to curb your algae out break, there are key information we require from you...............here are just some. Others may add more

How big is your tank 125 gallon, 20gal refugium, 30 gal sump
are you running a sump, refugium, canister filter....etc above
What type of circulation you have in main tank 2 jebao wp40s and a koralia 4. return pump is a reeflo dart
are you running a skimmer and what size in relation to volume RO diablo xp200, rated for 200 gal
What lights are you using t5's, 4x ati blue +, 1xpurple plus, and 1x geismann midday sun. bulbs are 2 mo old so they're not the culprit
How long do you keep your lights on 14 hours, 4 hours of that is sunrise/sunset
Where is your tank situated - is it near a window or something basement, no windows
Did you ever use tap water no
Are you using RODI and what is your TDS readings yes, and they are <15
Have you been doing regular water changes and how often around 25% every 2 weeks
What salt are you using reef crystals
Whats all your parameters like SG, ph, etc 1.026, 7.8, calcium and alk are within normal limits to slightly low, but those are non-contributory
Whats your livestock - fish and inverts pretty lightly stocked right now - small blue hippo, 3 anthias, 2 chromis, 2 smaller wrasses, and 1 clown. 2 small bubble tips, and lightly stocked with sps corals and zoas mostly - few lps mixed in. just ordered a giant cleanup crew from reefcleaners, and have 2 decorator urchins but they can't keep up.
where did you get your live rock from much of it was dry, cleaned and cycled before entering the tank. around 1/3 was live from my previous small tank
how did you cycle your tank there wasn't a cycle to speak of. put my live rock straight in and with a low bioload there has never been detectable nitrates
what do you feed or dose (corals or fish) I've scaled back on feeding corals for now due to the problems I've been having. I feed the fish once per day either flake/pellet/or frozen
are you running any kind of GFO, rowaphos, chemipure....etc I have been running BRS high capacity GFO and rox carbon in a reactor for the past 3-4 months with no improvements
are you running biopellets no
Do you have chaeto lots and it grows very well

I have had a number of tanks before and never had an algae problem that I couldn't just wait out and do water changes to cure it. I am manually removing around a cup a week of this gunk. It is not bryopsis, it's more of the typical green troll hair algae. most of it is soft but I have started getting a few patches of stuff that is more rough/bristle like.

I am sure, due to the prolific growth, that it is a nutrient problem, but my assumption at this point is that the algae absorbs it quick enough that there are never detectable levels in the water column. I have tested nitrates with 2 different test kits and phosphates with one. All have come up at 0 so far.

So, if I were to run vodka, how would I decide when to reduce to the maintenance dose since there is no detectable NO3/PO4?
 
Tds of 15ppm post di is very high and could contain significant ammonia or other nutrient sources . Post di tds should be 0; it is usually much worse in terms of concentrations of harmful materials than post ro membrane tds.

Are you dosing any supplements other than alk calcium magnesium btw? Iron? Trace elements? Ammino acids? Adding any bacteria;phytoplanton; special foods?

If you wan't to try vodka dosing, most settle in at a dose of between .04 to .08 ml of 80 proof /40% vodka per gallon of water volume;for a 125, that's 5 to 10mil. Each tank is different . I'd probably start at 1ml per hundred gallons as a dailly dose and work up to 4ml over a couple of weeks . Amping up more slowly is safer but I think starting at 1ml is ok.Watch the bubble tip anemones(entamacea ) closely,back of the dose if they show stress signs( closing or darkening); I have one and have hadit for 7 or 8yrs ;it stopped slpitting since carbon dosing started 5.5 years ago but is very large healthy and colorful.

Be sure your skimmer is functioning properly and is adequate for your aquarium.

FWIW, I currently use 36 ml of 80 proof vodka and 80ml of 5% vinegar(( 80 ml vinegar equals approximately 10ml vodka in carbon content) daily for 650 gallons.
 
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Really? I thought I'd always read that anything under 25ppm was ok. Does it sound funny to anyone else to see no nitrates and/or phosphates on the tests and have that much algae? Have you guys seen that happen before?
 
Really; it's not ok, particularly post di.A functioning membrane takes 95 to 98% of the tds out; then the remainder is eliminated by the di resin. However, certain elements with stronger polarity displace those with lesser polarity on the resin binding sites when the resin is exhausted, leading to a higher accumulated concentrations of those with a lesser attraction to the resin, like ammonia for example to flow out.
This article has much more:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-05/rhf/index.htm

This is from it:


"...when a DI resin becomes depleted, that does not simply mean that the water passes through just as it came from the RO effluent. It may actually be much worse from an aquarist’s perspective. The reason for this is that while the DI resin is functioning properly, all ions will be caught. But when it is depleted, not only the new ions are coming through and might show up in the product water, but so are all the ions that ever got into the DI resin in the first place. The total concentration of ions coming out of the exhausted DI resin will not be raised as compared to the RO's effluent, but which ions are released may be very different......

in a depleted scenario, when there are more ions than ion binding sites, those with a higher affinity for the resin will be retained, and those with a lower affinity will be released. It turns out that silicate is found at the lower end of affinity for anion resins. Consequently, if the DI resin has been collecting silicate for a long period and is then depleted, a large burst of silicate may be released.....

Perhaps even more of a concern is ammonia....

Ammonia has a poorer affinity for many cation-binding resins than do many other cations (e.g., calcium or magnesium). Consequently, when the DI resin first becomes depleted, a big release of ammonia from and through the DI resin is likely. I recently had a DI resin become depleted, and the effluent contained so much ammonia that I could easily smell it...."
 
Thanks for the info! Hadn't heard of that before. That'll be next on my list to replace. Do you think that would result in that much algae though? I would be hesitant to place the blame solely on that.
So far I'm assigning all of the blame for my algae problem on long term underfiltration and starting my tank on a budget. Some of the sand in my tank was moved directly from my nano without washing. The tank had only been set up for 4 months so I was hoping it wouldn't have too much detrius accumulation. Until a few weeks ago, I was also using a skimmer that was barely rated for my water quantity - a NWB 150. Between these two things, a lack of cleanup crew, etc I figure that I had an accumulation of nutrients that allowed the algae to take over. Since I now have a bigger skimmer and adequate cleanup crew we're at a stalemate. I was hoping that the vodka would tip the scales back in my direction. This is just my theory, I'd be happy to hear any other suggestions! Is vodka the route you guys would take or are there other measures you would try first?
 
It could result in a lot of algae and other issues as algae and other organisms take up ammonia as well as nitrate maybe even with a preference for ammonia. silicate could fuel diatoms and so on.

I'd fix the di for starters. If I culdn't do that I'd remove it just remove it ;the ro water without di is likely safer particularly since di producing 15 tds is exhausted. I'd give the new skimmer a chance ;review how much and what you are feeding,harvest the chaeto , pull out the nuisance algae frequentlyand clean up any detritus accumulations.
Vodka dosing may or may not be helpful in your case but I'd personally give the other steps at least a few weeks first. The tank obviously has a lot of nutrient in it adding organic C to it may not help much at this point.

This thread may be of interst if you are considering dosing organic carbon,vodka or otherwise:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing
 
Checked again today. I put <15 because I hadn't checked for a month or so but I remembered that they were "good." This recheck was 2. I'll check tap and pre DI in the am
 
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