Reefin' Dude
New member
i have read that article many times. it has one very important piece of information missing. poo/detritus. it does not talk about poo/detritus. that is at the heart of what is the problem with DSB's and most of the current thinking when setting up reef systems. what have i said in my previous posts that does not fit into what Randy points out in that article?
lets take your clam example listed. why have the clams? if the clams are there to try and export nutrients produced by rotting organic material, then where is the organic material coming from if a DSB is actually doing what it is purported to do? the clams/sea grasses are just creating another step to remove something that should not be there in the first place; left over poo/detritus. goes back to the point i was making earlier that an increase in biomass must also indicate and increase in nutrients available. if you are adding clams, then there is another link in the chain that must have enough food to eat. if the other links in the chain are still there, then there must also be enough food for them to eat also. you keep adding links, you keep needing more food for them to eat. whether or not you intend to is not the point. the point is the nutrients are there, the organism would not survive if they nutrients were not there to support their population. as anybody knows that in order to have a thriving population of anything you must also have an increasing amount of nutrients.
the biggest source of phosphates utilized by algae is from poo/detritus, not food. left over food does not cause algae, it has to be broken down by another organism before it can be utilized by algae. whether that is say an organism we want to keep (fish/corals) or by bacterial. algae can not directly uptake nutrients from a solid, it needs to be in solution. terrestrial plants still use bacteria to aid in the uptake of soil bound phosphates because plants themselves can not do it. the same is for algae, but unlike terrestrial plants, algae does not have a nutrient transport mechanism through the algae, hence the reason why holdfasts do not help in lower nutrients in a substrate.
take the whole section of that article about phosphate exports. show me where it talks about siphoning? why not? if the solution to pollution is dilution, then why is this not also the case with phosphates? why is actually siphoning out poo/detritus not covered in the article when it is obviously the fastest and most effective way to remove nutrients? if you siphon out poo/detritus before it has a chance to rot, then why have the algae, or the other organisms necessary to feed on the poo/detritus? how is siphoning out detritus not considered natural? this is what goes on every day on the reefs. inorganic nutrients are washed out to sea to feed plankton, then the incoming tide brings back fresh food to feed the reefs. the outgoing tide takes out reef waste. the unused inorganic phosphates then settle out into the abyss. to be recycled back on land through land shifting.
the point is to follow the phosphate trail and think it through. if there is more life in a system, ask why? all organisms need phosphates to live. if the amount of food going into the system is the same and all of the food is being utilized, then the population of only the organism that we are feeding directly will thrive. if there are other organisms thriving, then there must be something for them to be feeding on. simple biology. ALL organisms poo. what if you just remove the poo? would you need any of the other organisms? what do they get you besides something else that poo's?
we as aquarist tend to look at our test kits for answers instead of reading the tank. when using a phosphates test kit one is only getting a small glimpse into the actual nutrient levels of the system. test kits only look at the amount of inorganic phosphates that are in the water column. they do not see any of the phosphates bound in detritus, or in living biomass. the nutrients are still there. we need to start looking at our systems as a whole and not just look at the water. the fact that algae grows is an indicator that there is a nutrient problem. the fact that there is a thriving population of benthic inverts also points to a nutrient problem. is this a problem, yes and no, it all depends on the biotope one is trying to emulate. different biotopes require different setups.
i leave you with this graphic showing the different methods use to remove phosphates and which phosphates they are able to remove.
i will let you decide which method(s) make the most sense to you.
G~
lets take your clam example listed. why have the clams? if the clams are there to try and export nutrients produced by rotting organic material, then where is the organic material coming from if a DSB is actually doing what it is purported to do? the clams/sea grasses are just creating another step to remove something that should not be there in the first place; left over poo/detritus. goes back to the point i was making earlier that an increase in biomass must also indicate and increase in nutrients available. if you are adding clams, then there is another link in the chain that must have enough food to eat. if the other links in the chain are still there, then there must also be enough food for them to eat also. you keep adding links, you keep needing more food for them to eat. whether or not you intend to is not the point. the point is the nutrients are there, the organism would not survive if they nutrients were not there to support their population. as anybody knows that in order to have a thriving population of anything you must also have an increasing amount of nutrients.
the biggest source of phosphates utilized by algae is from poo/detritus, not food. left over food does not cause algae, it has to be broken down by another organism before it can be utilized by algae. whether that is say an organism we want to keep (fish/corals) or by bacterial. algae can not directly uptake nutrients from a solid, it needs to be in solution. terrestrial plants still use bacteria to aid in the uptake of soil bound phosphates because plants themselves can not do it. the same is for algae, but unlike terrestrial plants, algae does not have a nutrient transport mechanism through the algae, hence the reason why holdfasts do not help in lower nutrients in a substrate.
take the whole section of that article about phosphate exports. show me where it talks about siphoning? why not? if the solution to pollution is dilution, then why is this not also the case with phosphates? why is actually siphoning out poo/detritus not covered in the article when it is obviously the fastest and most effective way to remove nutrients? if you siphon out poo/detritus before it has a chance to rot, then why have the algae, or the other organisms necessary to feed on the poo/detritus? how is siphoning out detritus not considered natural? this is what goes on every day on the reefs. inorganic nutrients are washed out to sea to feed plankton, then the incoming tide brings back fresh food to feed the reefs. the outgoing tide takes out reef waste. the unused inorganic phosphates then settle out into the abyss. to be recycled back on land through land shifting.
the point is to follow the phosphate trail and think it through. if there is more life in a system, ask why? all organisms need phosphates to live. if the amount of food going into the system is the same and all of the food is being utilized, then the population of only the organism that we are feeding directly will thrive. if there are other organisms thriving, then there must be something for them to be feeding on. simple biology. ALL organisms poo. what if you just remove the poo? would you need any of the other organisms? what do they get you besides something else that poo's?
we as aquarist tend to look at our test kits for answers instead of reading the tank. when using a phosphates test kit one is only getting a small glimpse into the actual nutrient levels of the system. test kits only look at the amount of inorganic phosphates that are in the water column. they do not see any of the phosphates bound in detritus, or in living biomass. the nutrients are still there. we need to start looking at our systems as a whole and not just look at the water. the fact that algae grows is an indicator that there is a nutrient problem. the fact that there is a thriving population of benthic inverts also points to a nutrient problem. is this a problem, yes and no, it all depends on the biotope one is trying to emulate. different biotopes require different setups.
i leave you with this graphic showing the different methods use to remove phosphates and which phosphates they are able to remove.
i will let you decide which method(s) make the most sense to you.
G~
