Old light algae bloom fact or fiction?

Old light algae bloom fact or fiction?

  • 6 months

    Votes: 2 5.6%
  • 12 months

    Votes: 18 50.0%
  • 18 months

    Votes: 6 16.7%
  • 24 months

    Votes: 6 16.7%
  • when they burn out

    Votes: 4 11.1%

  • Total voters
    36
For fluorescent tubes, they seem to like to use a mix of actinic and triband phosphors. The question becomes (and I can't really find a suitable answer right now) which one lasts longer. If the longer wavelength phosphors outlive the shorter wavelength ones, then the spectrum is going to shift red. If they are going to burn up at the same rate, then maybe not. At least until you've lost all your mercury and it turns red from the argon.

I have a feeling that this is going to differ from one manufacturer to the next. Not all bulbs are created equal.

As a general rule, it is known that blue bulbs burn out faster than daylight bulbs. I just can't find anything (yet) that definitively implicates the phosphors.
 
I thought that old bulbs red-shifted slightly? (fluorescent or otherwise)

I think they do. But the real question is, does this small shift in color spectrum have any real effect on the growth of algae? After all, we already use a wide variety of color spectrums over our tanks.

I mean if the shift is small and the effect of that shift on the growth of algae is small, who cares and why are we being told to change our bulbs every 6-12 months? If the shift is big enough and the effect of that shift is enough to make algae really grow faster, where are the scientific studies? It's all aneccdotal stories, hearsay and rumor.

Joshi and Strohmeyer don't consider spectrum shift to be an issue at all. They replace bulbs because the output of the bulb falls off over time. And both said if you can lower the bulb over the tank, you can raise the PAR inside the tank you can continue using the same bulb. They do however say that after 12-18 months the output of a MH bulb falls off about 25%. If that means your PAR readings are too low, then replace the bulb. But if your PAR values are still where you want them, you don't need to change.
 
I've still got the same position. You want a single answer that applies to every situation and that does not exist.

It's one of those things that has just a grain of enough truth in it that we can't 100% call it a total myth.

A) I never said or even implied that I,"want a single answer that applies to every situation...". You are now putting words in my mouth and that's not fair. I don't mind having a disagreement and discussion. But lets not start fabricating and exaggerating.

B) You now say, "It's one of those things that has just a grain of enough truth in it that we can't 100% call it a total myth." So now the idea that old lights are a contributing factor to algae growth,"has just a grain of enough truth..." and , "we can't 100% call it a total myth."

I'm more than willing to buy that level of association between old bulbs and algae growth. Now the question is, is it really worth the expense of new bulbs every 6-12 months to avoid what; 1)has a grain of truth, 2) isn't 100% myth, and 3) may not even happen if you have your nutrients under control?

New lights over my 2 tanks would cost well over $500 if I buy quality bulbs, and about $250 if I buy cheap. Why should I spend $500+ for new bubs just because there is a chance some algae may grow? Heck, I can change $500 worth of bulbs and algae may grow anyway!

I understand that you believe that the spectrum shift in older bulbs is a contributing factor to possible algae growth if the nutrients are there as well. And that is in no way an unreasonable position. But your believing it, doesn't make it so. In fact, I would suggest that if it were so, somebody (like a bulb manufacturer) would do a study to prove the point. It sure couldn't hurt their sales. But there aren't any studies that prove that belief. OK, there may be such studies, but I haven't seen them. Have you? Has anybody?
 
A) I never said or even implied that I,"want a single answer that applies to every situation...". You are now putting words in my mouth and that's not fair. I don't mind having a disagreement and discussion. But lets not start fabricating and exaggerating.

But that's what it means to dispell a myth. Are you saying that it might happen sometimes and not others? If that's the case then we are in total agreement.

B) You now say, "It's one of those things that has just a grain of enough truth in it that we can't 100% call it a total myth." So now the idea that old lights are a contributing factor to algae growth,"has just a grain of enough truth..." and , "we can't 100% call it a total myth."

That's what I've been saying all along. The effect is not a total lie, it happens. But it's not the end of the story. How do you think this all comes down to lights? How can you say it has nothing to do with lights? You can't make either assertion. If you don't think lights contribute to algae growth, then turn them off for a week and see what happens to your algae.


I'm more than willing to buy that level of association between old bulbs and algae growth. Now the question is, is it really worth the expense of new bulbs every 6-12 months to avoid what; 1)has a grain of truth, 2) isn't 100% myth, and 3) may not even happen if you have your nutrients under control?

Man, you still don't understand me. I don't think you have to change bulbs every so many miles to avoid algae. I do believe that an algae problem CAN BE related to spectrum. I'm not basing that on anyone's study about fish tanks, I'm basing that on the light harvesting complexes present in the algae and the absorption spectra of those complexes. I've given you information on that. Would you like something more technical?



New lights over my 2 tanks would cost well over $500 if I buy quality bulbs, and about $250 if I buy cheap. Why should I spend $500+ for new bubs just because there is a chance some algae may grow? Heck, I can change $500 worth of bulbs and algae may grow anyway!

And you are absolutely right. No one said change the bulbs or algae will grow. Why would you change good bulbs? That would be stupid. What was said was, if you can't get the algae under control, look at the bulbs. Sometimes it helps. It's not going to make the problem go away on its own, but it may help you get an edge on it. I don't see why you don't understand the difference between a cause and a contributing factor.

I mean really, by all means, wear the bulbs out. If you get algae, then kill it it's not hard. If you don't then cool no problem. None of that means that color spectra has nothing to do with algae growth. It's a photosynthetic organism. Light affects it. No doubt.

Similarly, why do we run blue lights over our corals and not yellow? Because the coral prefers it. I think we know for a fact that the coral grows better under the blue. Right? So how is it so hard to believe that there also exists species that like red? Terrestrial plants for one. Why do you think leaves look green? It ain't cause they're absorbing green light that's for sure.






I understand that you believe that the spectrum shift in older bulbs is a contributing factor to possible algae growth if the nutrients are there as well. And that is in no way an unreasonable position. But your believing it, doesn't make it so. In fact, I would suggest that if it were so, somebody (like a bulb manufacturer) would do a study to prove the point. It sure couldn't hurt their sales. But there aren't any studies that prove that belief. OK, there may be such studies, but I haven't seen them. Have you? Has anybody?



Look, I don't think that you are implying that lights have absolutely no effect. And I am surely not implying that they are in any way a major effect. I think we agree on that much.

What we don't agree on, is the semantics of calling something like this a myth. Yes there is scientific evidence to back this up. Go look up those absorption spectra and see if they aren't red shifted for phycobilins vs. chlorophylls. You know they are. Look at the color you see when you look at the stuff.


The answer is SOOOOOOOOOO much more complicated than fact or myth.


I am going to stand by my assertion that a satisfactory answer will never be had here. It's not going to happen. Even the authors you mention stayed away from the meat of the topic. Neither one of them is going to call lighting a cause, because it's not that simple. But I haven't seen where either one of them has said that lighting has nothing to do with algae.

Even if we started our own controlled study, we couldn't put this to rest until we tried every possible brand of light over every possible species of algae. If you want to start going species by species, then start naming your species and we'll see if we can find information on their photosynthetic machinery. I'm sure that we'll find an effect for some and not others.
 
Look, I don't think that you are implying that lights have absolutely no effect. And I am surely not implying that they are in any way a major effect. I think we agree on that much.

Wow, we finally reach some common ground. I agree.

What we don't agree on, is the semantics of calling something like this a myth. Yes there is scientific evidence to back this up. Go look up those absorption spectra and see if they aren't red shifted for phycobilins vs. chlorophylls. You know they are. Look at the color you see when you look at the stuff.

OK, I'll take back the 'myth' part. It's not black and white. I think the part we don't agree on is that the small color shift that bulbs go through as they age is in any way significant to the growth of algae. Significant being the key word. I just keep hearing (and reading here on RC) that you should (or need to) change out old bulbs or you'll run the chance of an algae bloom. And my personal experience is that most people don't say you'll run the chance of an algae bloom", they say "you will have an algae bloom." That is the 'common perception'... myth if you will, that I'm arguing against. It's a very commonly held belief among newer reefers and perpetuated by some more experienced ones.
 
OK, I'll take back the 'myth' part. It's not black and white. I think the part we don't agree on is that the small color shift that bulbs go through as they age is in any way significant to the growth of algae. Significant being the key word. I just keep hearing (and reading here on RC) that you should (or need to) change out old bulbs or you'll run the chance of an algae bloom. And my personal experience is that most people don't say you'll run the chance of an algae bloom", they say "you will have an algae bloom." That is the 'common perception'... myth if you will, that I'm arguing against. It's a very commonly held belief among newer reefers and perpetuated by some more experienced ones.



Well, in that case we are in complete agreement. I don't think the problem with old bulbs are a significant threat. Rather they are one of many factors in the delicate balance. I don't see any need to change bulbs to prevent algae, but on the other hand if you are experiencing an outbreak and have old bulbs, then one way to help yourself out of that situation may be to get better bulbs.


I found this article on the phycobilins. It's getting really hard to find things that people aren't going to have to pay to read. So much of the scientific lit is pay-per-view these days if you're not already a member of something.

This one doesn't directly relate to what we are discussing, but it does have some nice pictures of the absorption spectra of these types of compounds and you can clearly see that their largest absorbance peaks are red shifted.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1161794/?tool=pmcentrez

If you have some journal access, you could chase down the references out of this paper and probably find something better.



Another place to look, if someone has time, would be at the early development of grow lights. We all know that growing plants indoor you don't use blue lights. I guess the same thing goes for chaeto in the refugium. Or really anything else. I have (and I know this is the anecdotal evidence we were trying to avoid, but allow me one piece) T5's on my tank and a 6500K bulb over my refugium. My tank stays clear, and yet my refugium is full of all sorts of algae, from cyano to green hair to chaeto to red macros. But none of it ever takes hold under the blue lights in the tank.


Here's another neat picture that puts several on one graph.

I got it from

http://phototroph.blogspot.com/2006/11/pigments-and-absorption-spectra.html

Not the greatest source I know, but it had the best picture.


abs-spect-pigs.0.jpg



You can see that as we move from the carotenoids and chlorophylls through the different pigments, that the absorption spectra gets progressively more red shifted.



This one also has some good pictures and focuses on one particular culture group of cyanobacteria.

http://ijs.sgmjournals.org/content/51/3/861.full.pdf



And finally this one. Look at the chart on page 947 specifically. This shows the difference between the algaes we have been talking about and the dinoflagellates which are more closely related to our zooxanthellae (at least in their light harvesting apparatus).

http://spg.ucsd.edu/people/Greg/Publications/04638_Hewes_1998_JournPhycology.pdf

Right there in the middle is WH-8103, a cyanobacteria, proving that none of this is absolute.
 
I just enjoy being able to have a disagreement and discussion over something and seeing that stay civil. I keep coming back to this, just because I enjoy a civil discussion and that so rarely happens these days, especially on the internet.

So I would like to pause here in the middle to say Thank-you to everyone involved for not turning any of this into name calling or hyperbole or any of that noise you get anywhere else two people want to discuss something that they are not in total agreement on.

So if I play a bit of the devil's advocate from time to time, it is only because you folks are so nice to debate with. You make this fun.


Again,

Thank-you to everyone involved here.
 
I just enjoy being able to have a disagreement and discussion over something and seeing that stay civil. I keep coming back to this, just because I enjoy a civil discussion and that so rarely happens these days, especially on the internet.

So I would like to pause here in the middle to say Thank-you to everyone involved for not turning any of this into name calling or hyperbole or any of that noise you get anywhere else two people want to discuss something that they are not in total agreement on.

So if I play a bit of the devil's advocate from time to time, it is only because you folks are so nice to debate with. You make this fun.


Again,

Thank-you to everyone involved here.

+1 I agree. This has been a learning experience for me and I appreciate all the links you have provided in your posts. Sometimes it's very difficult to 'read' the attitude that people put into their posts. Communications like this can go downhill quickly. Thanks. BTW, in October Sanja Joshi will be speaking at a get together in Orlando which I plan to attend. You have provided me with some insights I hope to discuss with him there.
 
Well, I'll chime in on this one. I switched from Mh to solar tubes with no major algae problems. My solar tubes are "unfiltered" so, at midday, the tank is yellow.

My 'fuge grows lot of algae, but I run 6500k PC's for 24 hours over that. It gets lots of light. The only time I have a problem in my tank with hair algae is when I slack on the maintenance.

So, I'm going to agree with one of the earlier statements in this thread. I think it's more nutrients than spectrum.

But, when I did run MH, I changed the bulbs out about every 12-14 months. More for PAR than anything else.
 
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