OMG 40 clipperton angelfish, Holocanthus limbaughi,

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14984935#post14984935 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kahuna Tuna
Its stuff like this that is going to get this hobby shut down IMO. There was no excuse for this, it was a blatant attempt to sneak a fish in and they got caught. I dont see any heros here.

If you really think that stuff like that, or any kinda stuff will shut the hobby and be legit you are wrong!
If this hobby will be shut or limited it should be due to a severe damage to corals reefs.

I dont think it can happen, first of all shut down all the fishermans taking out so many tons or fish daily for the food industry, none of them are doing it suatainable way or logically, this is the real threat to our oceans, over harvesting thousands of tons daily.

Compare to this our hobby is NOTHING.

Its enough to go to any large fish market in Asia(food) and see for yourself, its unreal.
 
Look the purty feesh
Here's a fresh one from this batch
clips2b.jpg

Here's a wild one on L'Ile de Passion
P4192632ch.05-255lr.jpg
 
I am quite appalled at the apparent support for his activities of wildlife smuggling. Interesting fish? Yes. First time for the hobby? Perhaps. Rationalized reasons for ILLEGALLY trying to import a fish- never. I dont care how rare, interesting, or groundbreaking these fish mightve been for the hobby. Trying to illegally import them in is a very poor plan of action, and will reflect on him for the rest of his career.

I am very curious to know exactlly why this chain of events has happened. If Steve did indeed legally collect these fish, he shouldve had no problem whatsoever declaring them as H. limgaughi upon import, rather than trying deceive the USFWS. He has also stated, that in retrospect, he wouldve even just listed them a Holocanthus sp., rather than their true identituy yet again. My question is, why is he so afraid to let USFWS know what tehse fish are? Where eaxctly did he collect them? Could this be a even more sordid detail of this event?

Vili- you can blame USFWS, governments, whoever you want in this matter, but if you support animal smuggling and poaching for the pet trade, you should just come out and say it. In this case, Steve tried to illegally smuggle animals into teh country. It is no different than these following cases:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8117876/

http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=56641

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Authorities_net_endangered_fish_smu_09262007.html

You can continue to glamorize and try to justify his actions all you want, and continue to blame and dcery the agencies that stopped him, but he was illegally smuggling fish, plain and simple. Furthermore, you never responded to me, where are you from? I would love to prove my point to you that EVERY country in the world will have a wildlife regulation agency comparable to the USFWS with rules and regulations that are the same. If you expected the USFWS to say "Hey, even though you LIED to us, and misled us into ntrying to belive these fish were not the species they actually are, go ahead and import them anyway, and feel free to sell them, because you had guts in collecting them", you are being naive and irresponsible. Steve showed tremendous disregard and ignorance in attempting to break the law, especially with his history, experience, and credibility. It truly is a sad time and black eye for this hobby to have a pioneer be revealed as a detriment to conscientious hobby practices.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14985009#post14985009 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Vili_Shark
If you really think that stuff like that, or any kinda stuff will shut the hobby and be legit you are wrong!
If this hobby will be shut or limited it should be due to a severe damage to corals reefs.

I dont think it can happen, first of all shut down all the fishermans taking out so many tons or fish daily for the food industry, none of them are doing it suatainable way or logically, this is the real threat to our oceans, over harvesting thousands of tons daily.

Compare to this our hobby is NOTHING.

Its enough to go to any large fish market in Asia(food) and see for yourself, its unreal.

So, this makes it OK to poach and smuggle fish?
 
I am going to reopen this thread with certain ground rules.

There will be no discussion/debate regarding existing laws and regulations and how they can be avoided.

There will be no discussion praising illegal or unethical collection techniques.
 
there are many loop holes in every legal system, in this case they thought they found it but it was closed immediately. In all Honesty, the best way to do it call fish and wildlife and simply say " I want to collect legal fish, H. limgaughi, from clipperton legally with a permit, how can i have the proper paper work to bring them in the states through Mexico so there are no complications??" I guarantee you, they will help you and tell you exactly what you need to do so.

These actions wont shut down the industry but it puts a light on it. Especially with the snorkel bob thing here in Hawaii, this hobby (everywhere) needs to be very careful of its actions, and promote awareness and longevity.

You cannot compare food fish to Aquarium fish. They have tried for years to lump them in the same category but it has never, and will never happen. Food fish industry is 100x bigger than ours. That will never get shut down IMO, unless something very drastic happens.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14988623#post14988623 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zemuron114


These actions wont shut down the industry but it puts a light on it. Especially with the snorkel bob thing here in Hawaii, this hobby (everywhere) needs to be very careful of its actions, and promote awareness and longevity.
Thanks, that's what I wanted to get at. Perhaps the how to smuggle wasn't the best idea. ;) Even though it's wrong and such, the basic premise is that this event is hopefully shining a light on the whole ordeal. If we all just sat back and said 'oh well, we'll never get H. limbaughi's" that's what would happen, we'd never get the fish. This event hopefully brings some light that some actions need to be take.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14988623#post14988623 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by zemuron114
You cannot compare food fish to Aquarium fish. They have tried for years to lump them in the same category but it has never, and will never happen. Food fish industry is 100x bigger than ours. That will never get shut down IMO, unless something very drastic happens.
I guess this is sort of like the pollution thing. America can squabble the tiny things we can do here and there, but the planet will be long destroyed from places like India long before the US puts a dent into things...:rolleyes:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14985246#post14985246 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
So, this makes it OK to poach and smuggle fish?

Jmaneyapanda,

Steve is a pretty busy dude, especially after a shipment, especially on the weekend: arguing with misinformed hobbyists during his time off - I doubt it is a form of recreation for him.

I can't/won't speak for Steve, but I will say this: the confiscation had to do with a classification/paperwork issue between two countries that could not be avoided given the circumstances. There was no attempt at smuggling, and you gotta realize Clipperton is a long ways to go (and a great expense) to try and make a quick buck on the sly.

Everyone who has made comments about smuggling and any law breaking concerning these Clipperton Angels should reconsider their statements. Steve has been accused of smuggling before (even by someone who has made comments on this thread...and that person was proven dead wrong). Don't believe the hype - but DO believe it is not someone's responsibility to come on RC and answer YOUR questions based on incomplete/bad information. And DO believe it is your responsibility to have the facts before making statements.

This thread started with someone's blog posting, which should not be confused with news, and is arguably the most dubious source of factual information in the free world. Steve may come on and more directly answer your questions, or he may not. But rest assured if he does not provide more information to you, your statements, theories and assumptions will continue to be incorrect and incomplete.
 
I have no clue of the politics involved in import/export but from the beginning of the accusations of smuggling, Im wondering after all the trouble and long process of obtaining permits to collect Clarions, why would he skip the proper paperwork for the Clippertons, given how easy so many have hinted that it is to get :confused:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14988827#post14988827 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ian
I have no clue of the politics involved in import/export but from the beginning of the accusations of smuggling, Im wondering after all the trouble and long process of obtaining permits to collect Clarions, why would he skip the proper paperwork for the Clippertons, given how easy so many have hinted that it is to get :confused:

I have no background knowledge of Steve or his business practices, apart from the fact that he does deal with Clarions.

However, from reading this thread and a little background research, I could probably see why there was a muck up with the paperwork. From what I've read, Steve collected these fish legally. However, the import permits for the US were mucked up due to what is called 'administrative errors'. It is quite possible that somebody who is not too knowledgeable in fish species completed the paperwork using the mexican name, 'blue passer'. When completing the scientific name, it may have been thought that these were just blue variant passer angels, not clipperton angels, hence the latin name for passer angels being used.

These kinds of things happens in all industries. I remember I was working at a Killers concert not too long ago and all the gear wouldn't be released from customs because of a paperwork muck up. It was however sorted on the day of the concert.

I think some members here need to just chill out, and wait for more facts to come out before they start accusing people of animal smuggling. All of the problems with USFWS could have most likely come from a simple paperwork bugger with Steve's people in Mexico
 
from what I have heard through a friend at USFWS is that this was all a paper work screw up in mexico that once it started could have not been avoided.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14988807#post14988807 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Terra Ferma
Jmaneyapanda,

Steve is a pretty busy dude, especially after a shipment, especially on the weekend: arguing with misinformed hobbyists during his time off - I doubt it is a form of recreation for him.

I can't/won't speak for Steve, but I will say this: the confiscation had to do with a classification/paperwork issue between two countries that could not be avoided given the circumstances. There was no attempt at smuggling, and you gotta realize Clipperton is a long ways to go (and a great expense) to try and make a quick buck on the sly.

Everyone who has made comments about smuggling and any law breaking concerning these Clipperton Angels should reconsider their statements. Steve has been accused of smuggling before (even by someone who has made comments on this thread...and that person was proven dead wrong). Don't believe the hype - but DO believe it is not someone's responsibility to come on RC and answer YOUR questions based on incomplete/bad information. And DO believe it is your responsibility to have the facts before making statements.

This thread started with someone's blog posting, which should not be confused with news, and is arguably the most dubious source of factual information in the free world. Steve may come on and more directly answer your questions, or he may not. But rest assured if he does not provide more information to you, your statements, theories and assumptions will continue to be incorrect and incomplete.

I appreciate the consern and alliance to Steve here, but I am basing all my statments of what Steve himself has stated. Here are some impirtant facts of the matter, which need to be considered here also. Steve can "pass the buck" all he wants to his Mexican colleague, and maybe thats accurate, if the MWExican colleague is the actual person importing the fish. But, I am of the understanding that it is Steve who is doing so. I am under the impression it was Steve who supplied the USFWS impiort/export l;icense, and Steve who was actually importing the animals. As such, Steve is responsible for all the paperwork, and their throughness and legality. He, wouldve needed to fill out this form to import animals to the US:

http://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/3-177-1.pdf

Please pay special attention to box 16A. This is where Steve, and Steve alone, has made the mistake, and where he is at fault. You are required to put the scientific name for the species in this box. Steve (or Steve's cohort- again, it doesnt matter, because Steve has purportedly taken responsibility for the import, so he is responsible) has put in this box "Holacanthus passer", which is the scientific name for an entirely different species of fish. Why? If, indeed these fish were collected legally, there would be no problem in putting that name. They are not CITES protected, and no additional permitting would be necessary. But, it wasnt, it was labelled as an entirely different fish species. Might as well as been Amphiprion occelaris, because it was decietful all the same. The fact that they wre labelled as "blue passers", eads to even more suspicion of deception. Why such the effort to incorrectly claim these fish to be something they are not? And please note, this was all done by the importer- Steve. Not USFWS, not some other beaurocratic entity. But Steve. So USFWS, sees this, and determines that these are not Holacanthus passer, but instead Holacanthus limbaughi. And, as such, are confiscated. All of those facts came from Stebve Robsinson himslef, in this thread. So, for the sake of discussion, lets define smuggling. It is the clandestine transportation of goods or persons past a point where prohibited, such as out of a building, into a prison, or across an international border, in violation of the law or other rules. This is exactly what Steve was attempting to do. So, if I am so wrong in my interpretation, where did USFWS misstep and cause this problem, and why is Steve so innocent? Steve has also mentioned, that, in retrospect, he wouldve simply put "Holacanthus sp." on the paperwork, rather than Holacanthus passer. Why? Why not Holacanthus limbaughi? This also screams illegitimacy.

To make matters a little more cloudy, the original report stated that he had stated their origin was Mexico. I dont know how true that is or not, but if he did, in box 20 of the form above, he indicated Mexico. If that happened (and thats only IF that happened), he has yet added another "nail to his coffin", as this is one more instance of falsifying the information, and attempting to decieve. Steve has not said whether this is true or not yet, though.

I understand Steve will be busy now. However, in light of the information and facts that HE himself has provided, Steve did, in fact, attempt to smuggle animals into the country. Certain peopel seem quite fixated on defending his actions, passing the blame to USFWS, or ignoring the realitities of what he did in light of this amazing collection trip. Amazing trip and experience, Im sure. But, as you ahve requested, the absolute facts, from the "horses mouth" in this case, show that he isnt as innocent as many are claiming.
 
Steves had a rough year.First sending clarions straight to Hobbyist bypassing the Lfs that keep his business afloat and now this.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14988807#post14988807 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Terra Ferma
This thread started with someone's blog posting, which should not be confused with news, and is arguably the most dubious source of factual information in the free world.

I hope you are speaking about blogs in general because Reefbuilders.com has an excellent record of accuracy in reporting.

There is a lot of speculation going on here about what really went down but no one will really know the facts until the FWS closes its investigation and is ready to make a statement.
 
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