ORA/Captive Bred/Raised Mandarins

[BigJohnny]

Hey Reefers,

I am trying to find a place that sells captive bred or raised mandarin which feed on mysis. I know that they are few and far between however I only have a new 50g and could not sustain one otherwise.

I have read about and seen personally how people have trained wild caught mandarin to eat mysis, however I would rather purchase one that has always done so. Any thoughts?

Thanks

 

[ca1ore]

Does ORA even offer mandarins anymore? I didn't think they did. Have completely failed to wean mine onto prepared foods. Enough pods, apparently, or maybe it's sneaking some frozen, not sure.

 

[dmh41532]

I contacted ORA several months ago about the mandarins, they stopped breeding the mandarins and did not know when or if they would resume breeding. Probably due to the high cost of captive bred people would rather buy cheap wild collected ones that will likely starve to death.

 

[BigJohnny]

Does ORA even offer mandarins anymore? I didn't think they did. Have completely failed to wean mine onto prepared foods. Enough pods, apparently, or maybe it's sneaking some frozen, not sure.

I don't know. They have them on their website but don't see them selling anywhere.

N yes, that is what I'm afraid of. I'll get one and not be able to train it to eat mysis. I have heard the best way to do this however I'd feed them live brine in qt (the brine should be fed rotifers before then so they are more nutritional). I am told they will eat live brine if you pump em in there heavy. Usually they are relatively starving from the whole acquisition and delivery process.

Then gradually add mysis in with the brine. Increasing the ratio of mysis to brine until it's all mysis. I am told that they will accidentally ingest the mysis with the brine and begin to associate the two and eventually eat mysis only.

One guy I know has done this with 2 mandarins. Once they got into his tank he makes sure to put mysis in a quiet corner of the tank every time he feeds so that they always have some just for them. He said they begin to go to that corner automatically when they smell mysis in the water column.

How big/old is your tank and do you have a refugium/supplement pods?

 

[BigJohnny]

I contacted ORA several months ago about the mandarins, they stopped breeding the mandarins and did not know when or if they would resume breeding. Probably due to the high cost of captive bred people would rather buy cheap wild collected ones that will likely starve to death.

That's sad and dissapointing. Just need a new passionate company to come around I guess.

 

[ThRoewer]

That's sad and dissapointing. Just need a new passionate company to come around I guess.

ORA lost their passion a while ago when they hopped in bed with Petco.
Now it's all about volume and price but not quality...

 

[dmh41532]

ORA does business with Petco? That's unfortunate.

 

[Agathos]

I am not sure we should put the fault at ORA entirely. If we as hobbyists are not willing to pay extra money for sustainable animals from captive breeding, but rather go for cheaper wild caught animals, then ORA can't really be blamed for not doing it anymore. Fact is that breeding mandarins are very costly, this will necesarrily be reflected in the price tags.

 

[snorvich]

Actually the ORA mandarins rarely worked out. Price is not an issue, but fish that are not healthy and robust is.

 

[ca1ore]

How big/old is your tank and do you have a refugium/supplement pods?

My Mandarin 'journey' has been a rather convoluted one. I bought an established 90gal off craigslst back in April of 2013 that came with a pair of them. One looked OK, the other was very thin. Tank came with a lot of rock, and I used some of it along with chaeto in a remote refugium. Thin mandarin died fairly quickly, but the other did pretty well. In October 2013 I moved up to my current 265, but with the same refugium. I have literally never seen the mandarin actually eat any of the frozen foods that are added to the tank, but there is enough live rock in the system to maintain what appears to be a sustainable population of pods. I do not add pods, and the only other fish that is likely to compete is a leopard wrasse. It's been 2 1/2 years, and the mandarin appears to be at a healthy weight.

Frankly, I think the conventional wisdom on these fish is correct: they require a mature tank of at least 100 gallons, with plenty of live rock and a productive refugium.

 

[alton]

Actually the ORA mandarins rarely worked out. Price is not an issue, but fish that are not healthy and robust is.

This is what I remember also, so many thought they could now have a mandarin in there tank and it did not work out.

 

[ThRoewer]

...Frankly, I think the conventional wisdom on these fish is correct: they require a mature tank of at least 100 gallons, with plenty of live rock and a productive refugium.

Maybe, but above all they require experience.

I put a pair in a 3 week old sump-less 18" cube (25gal) and they are still doing fine after 6 months. The male has actually gained 50% in size.

But you are correct about the live rock. They need a lot but it has to be real live rock (the stuff from the ocean).

They need a tank that is structured right to support a large number of diverse pots. Most importantly they need a good layer of coarse gravel that serves as an in-tank refuge for pods. Bare bottom tanks are not good for them unless they are huge. An external refuge is good as a reservoir but likely won't provide enough pods to sustain a pair of mandarins.

It also helps to culture pods externally. Tigger pods are easy to culture and a good food for all fish.

Finally, you should make an effort to train them on frozen foods like Mysis or brine shrimp. While in general not enough to fully sustain them, it will add bulk to their food supply.

 

[BigJohnny]

Maybe, but above all they require experience.

I put a pair in a 3 week old sump-less 18" cube (25gal) and they are still doing fine after 6 months. The male has actually gained 50% in size.

But you are correct about the live rock. They need a lot but it has to be real live rock (the stuff from the ocean).

They need a tank that is structured right to support a large number of diverse pots. Most importantly they need a good layer of coarse gravel that serves as an in-tank refuge for pods. Bare bottom tanks are not good for them unless they are huge. An external refuge is good as a reservoir but likely won't provide enough pods to sustain a pair of mandarins.

It also helps to culture pods externally. Tigger pods are easy to culture and a good food for all fish.

Finally, you should make an effort to train them on frozen foods like Mysis or brine shrimp. While in general not enough to fully sustain them, it will add bulk to their food supply.

I'm guessing you serve them cultured pods in that 25gal? Can I see pics of that tank setup and an explanation of what you do to sustain them? Would really appreciate it.

I really want one in my new 50g and have seen people have success culturing pods.

 

[MondoBongo]

don't believe the hype about ORA mandarins, or mandy's being "trained" on frozen.

i'm with snorvich on this one, every mandy i've ever met will eat frozen if they can get it, however due to their physiology and inability to effectively compete, you still need the right sized tank and the pods to ensure long term success.

these fish are grazers, all day long, to the exclusion of almost everything else. one, two, three, or even four feedings a day aren't really practical or sufficient to make them sustainable.

you will hear stories of success in smaller tanks, but those are the exception, certainly not the rule, and i would be cautious of anyone declaring success prior to the one year mark.

if you are rock heavy, have a good substrate, and established tank, no direct pod competitors, and a large, productive fuge, then you're right on the cusp of what is acceptable to sustain a small mandy. obviously bigger is better, but given those criteria, and at least a tank established for about one year, you could potentially pull it off.

take away any of those points however, and i wouldn't try it.

in regards to culturing the pods, this can be finicky. cultures usually take between 4 - 8 weeks to start producing in numbers large enough to harvest. they are also temperamental and prone to crashing without warning. so i treat external cultures as an insurance policy, not a given.

in tanks that are on the lower, and vigorously debated, end of "acceptable" it's always good to take a hard look at how much risk you're willing to take. larger tanks give you larger margins of error with obligate feeders such as these. you also need to take stock of just how much supplementation you're willing to do. PaulB has constructed some very clever, and extremely useful, feeders for helping to supplement fish that prefer small, living prey like mandy's and pipe fish.

so let's talk it out:

what else do you keep, and what are you planning to keep?
how much rock is in your display and sump?
you do have a sump, right?
how big is your refugium?
what kind of substrate do you have?

know that having one of these fish will dictate future stocking options to a large extent, especially in a smaller tank such as yours. all wrasse would pretty much be out of the picture. pipefish would also be a no go. pretty much any other competitor for pods would be off the list, and since a 50 gallon is too small for tangs/angels/etc... you may find that unacceptably limits your potential stock options.

 

[BigJohnny]

don't believe the hype about ORA mandarins, or mandy's being "trained" on frozen.

i'm with snorvich on this one, every mandy i've ever met will eat frozen if they can get it, however due to their physiology and inability to effectively compete, you still need the right sized tank and the pods to ensure long term success.

these fish are grazers, all day long, to the exclusion of almost everything else. one, two, three, or even four feedings a day aren't really practical or sufficient to make them sustainable.

you will hear stories of success in smaller tanks, but those are the exception, certainly not the rule, and i would be cautious of anyone declaring success prior to the one year mark.

if you are rock heavy, have a good substrate, and established tank, no direct pod competitors, and a large, productive fuge, then you're right on the cusp of what is acceptable to sustain a small mandy. obviously bigger is better, but given those criteria, and at least a tank established for about one year, you could potentially pull it off.

take away any of those points however, and i wouldn't try it.

in regards to culturing the pods, this can be finicky. cultures usually take between 4 - 8 weeks to start producing in numbers large enough to harvest. they are also temperamental and prone to crashing without warning. so i treat external cultures as an insurance policy, not a given.

in tanks that are on the lower, and vigorously debated, end of "acceptable" it's always good to take a hard look at how much risk you're willing to take. larger tanks give you larger margins of error with obligate feeders such as these. you also need to take stock of just how much supplementation you're willing to do. PaulB has constructed some very clever, and extremely useful, feeders for helping to supplement fish that prefer small, living prey like mandy's and pipe fish.

so let's talk it out:

what else do you keep, and what are you planning to keep?
how much rock is in your display and sump?
you do have a sump, right?
how big is your refugium?
what kind of substrate do you have?

know that having one of these fish will dictate future stocking options to a large extent, especially in a smaller tank such as yours. all wrasse would pretty much be out of the picture. pipefish would also be a no go. pretty much any other competitor for pods would be off the list, and since a 50 gallon is too small for tangs/angels/etc... you may find that unacceptably limits your potential stock options.

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I doubt I'm really getting a mandarin as I am extremely empathetic with my animals and would probably not risk it, however I am just curious if there are viable options.

Just a few questions. Mysis are so much bigger than pods, if one eats mysis several times a day, how is that not sufficient? Especially in a small tank where you can guarantee its eating the mysis?

I was only planning on having 2 clowns, a firefish, royal Gramma and maybe a rainford or greenbanded goby. However I would be satisfied with just 2 clowns and a mandarin. I only want a few fish to be happy and also don't want to deal with excess nitrates and phosphates. my focus is equally on coral. I'd even consider only mandarins and coral.

This is a new tank, no sump. 60lbs live rock, 50lbs live sand (ocean direct), no refugium. That is why I asked the guy above what he does to keep 2 in a 18" sumpless cube.

I have seem personally mandarins fat off mysis in Sumpless refugium less tanks. one person supplemented pods via culture just incase, one did not.

 

[ThRoewer]

...
these fish are grazers, all day long, to the exclusion of almost everything else. one, two, three, or even four feedings a day aren't really practical or sufficient to make them sustainable....

Almost all reef fish are spending all day to feed in the wild, yet many adapt to a couple of feedings a day after a while in a tank. Mandarins are no exception to this. The whole thing about their stomachs being small doesn't hold water to me as I see them fill their bellies within minutes and maintaining it for hours.

I've had these guys since the early 80s - almost always in pairs - and back then they mostly survived on frozen foods I gave them as there were much less sources of pods around.
My pairs then were always fat and spawning.

My current pair will fill their bellies visibly when I feed them brine shrimp and they actively pick them out of the free water. I cut down feeding brine shrimp for now to get my clowns used to Mysis. The male mandarin picked up on taking Mysis as well.

Even a large and mature tank is no guarantee for success if it never got properly seeded with a broad variety of pods or has the required in tank refuge they need to survive. Man made rocks usually do not provide that. They often lack the small pores all these critters need to hide and survive in.

I'm by no means advocating to keep mandarins in small tanks, not just for the food but rather for all their other needs, especially spawning. They can't really do that in a tiny or too shallow tank. For that they need at least 60cm (24in) high tanks.
That's why mine will get an upgrade. Unfortunately it got delayed for months by the tank manufacturer.

As for pod cultures - you need to have a lot. I have currently 9 tigger pod cultures of various sizes. And yes, you can't fully count on them. That's why you want to get them to eat frozen food.

But as I stated before, experience is required for these fish (like for almost all others as well). And you need to be willing to go the extra mile.
It's not a fish for beginners or people who don't want to spend a significant amount of time caring for their tank.

 

[BigJohnny]

Almost all reef fish are spending all day to feed in the wild, yet many adapt to a couple of feedings a day after a while in a tank. Mandarins are no exception to this. The whole thing about their stomachs being small doesn't hold water to me as I see them fill their bellies within minutes and maintaining it for hours.

I've had these guys since the early 80s - almost always in pairs - and back then they mostly survived on frozen foods I gave them as there were much less sources of pods around.
My pairs then were always fat and spawning.

My current pair will fill their bellies visibly when I feed them brine shrimp and they actively pick them out of the free water. I cut down feeding brine shrimp for now to get my clowns used to Mysis. The male mandarin picked up on taking Mysis as well.

Even a large and mature tank is no guarantee for success if it never got properly seeded with a broad variety of pods or has the required in tank refuge they need to survive. Man made rocks usually do not provide that. They often lack the small pores all these critters need to hide and survive in.

I'm by no means advocating to keep mandarins in small tanks, not just for the food but rather for all their other needs, especially spawning. They can't really do that in a tiny or too shallow tank. For that they need at least 60cm (24in) high tanks.
That's why mine will get an upgrade. Unfortunately it got delayed for months by the tank manufacturer.

As for pod cultures - you need to have a lot. I have currently 9 tigger pod cultures of various sizes. And yes, you can't fully count on them. That's why you want to get them to eat frozen food.

But as I stated before, experience is required for these fish (like for almost all others as well). And you need to be willing to go the extra mile.
It's not a fish for beginners or people who don't want to spend a significant amount of time caring for their tank.

Cool thanks for your input. I am not a beginner and go the extra mile for all my animals. I've had everything you can imagine but this is only my 2nd saltwater tank. However I am willing to do anything anyone else would be willing to do, I promise [emoji6] . I am not concerned with spawning.

How do you get yours on mysis? Brine then mysis brine mix then mysis?

I should mention I have a 90g with 40g sump upgrade that I'm switching to in a year. just not allowed to where I rent currently.

 

[MondoBongo]

Almost all reef fish are spending all day to feed in the wild, yet many adapt to a couple of feedings a day after a while in a tank. Mandarins are no exception to this. The whole thing about their stomachs being small doesn't hold water to me as I see them fill their bellies within minutes and maintaining it for hours.

I've had these guys since the early 80s - almost always in pairs - and back then they mostly survived on frozen foods I gave them as there were much less sources of pods around.
My pairs then were always fat and spawning.

My current pair will fill their bellies visibly when I feed them brine shrimp and they actively pick them out of the free water. I cut down feeding brine shrimp for now to get my clowns used to Mysis. The male mandarin picked up on taking Mysis as well.

Even a large and mature tank is no guarantee for success if it never got properly seeded with a broad variety of pods or has the required in tank refuge they need to survive. Man made rocks usually do not provide that. They often lack the small pores all these critters need to hide and survive in.

I'm by no means advocating to keep mandarins in small tanks, not just for the food but rather for all their other needs, especially spawning. They can't really do that in a tiny or too shallow tank. For that they need at least 60cm (24in) high tanks.
That's why mine will get an upgrade. Unfortunately it got delayed for months by the tank manufacturer.

As for pod cultures - you need to have a lot. I have currently 9 tigger pod cultures of various sizes. And yes, you can't fully count on them. That's why you want to get them to eat frozen food.

But as I stated before, experience is required for these fish (like for almost all others as well). And you need to be willing to go the extra mile.
It's not a fish for beginners or people who don't want to spend a significant amount of time caring for their tank.

how long were they surviving for? i'll be blunt, i'm not impressed by 6 months in a tank. it's about halfway for i would even deem moderate success with these guys. you say you've been keeping since the 80's, that's all well and good, but if you're going through pairs every year or, then that wouldn't be a good sign. so without proper context, that statement lacks any value.

i never said a larger tank was a guarantee. you'll never hear me say that about these fish, or any others for that matter. if you see, i'm talking about stacking the deck in your favor as much as possible, and that is one dimension of that strategy.

to the OP, don't count on tank upgrades. life tends to get in the way. i have a 160 that has been dry in the basement for almost two years now, and is finally going up in a week or so as we prepare to move in to a new house. ha. if you're planning a move and an upgrade to a 90 in a year or two's time, i would highly suggest revisiting the idea of a mandarin then. a 90 with a sump and fuge would be a great setup to try a mandy in.

in regards to the feeding strategy, this is primary based off observations of their behaviours. in some ways it is a bit of what is called a Fermi Estimation, based on counting their strikes over a period of time and extrapolating from there.

you will obviously see their belly's swell immediately after a large feeding, and these guys, like most other fish, will gorge themselves readily when a food source is on offer. however, they seem to put on their best weight, and be the most active and responsive when allowed to feed at a steady rate all day.

these are things i have personally observed via doing my own large feedings, and in other keepers tanks. is this scientific, or guaranteed? no it is not, however it is strong anecdotal evidence, and for a relatively novice keeper, an excellent set of guidelines to help give them the best chances for success.

i also want to add that i don't mean to diminish your experience or knowledge as a keeper, and don't mean to seem brusque, but it has been a long day, and i am quite tired, so i prefer to be direct.

 

[ThRoewer]

It's not that I had very many of them - maybe 2 or 3 singles (as a beginner) and 5 pairs over 25 years, at times several in different tanks. With the exception of the first none of them died of starvation or malnutrition. Some were killed by sixlines until I found out that those don't play well with mandarins. Usually they were around for several years.

I disagree on 6 months being insignificant. If they make it that long and grow than they will also make it also easily another 6 months or more. I would say the first two months are where it decides whether they make it or not.
I got this pair as half starved little ones and both are not just surviving but have grown significantly over the time, especially the male who was originally the same size as the female but now is 1/3 larger than her.

I could keep them in this tank indefinitely - the gravel layer is crawling with Mysis, isopods and amphipods to name the biggest. They also pick up the leftovers that the other fish or shrimp missed.
In this tank it's not the mandarins I'm concerned about but the corals that start touching and killing each other.

If it comes to tank size: at this point I could keep my two well fed with frozen foods and tigger pods in a 10g bare bottom tank if necessary. Not that I plan on doing this for any extended period of time or recommend it to everyone else.

Also the feeding of frozen food is ideally only a supplement and to have a backup in case you need to keep them in a smaller tank for some time.
Their main foods should always be live foods they hunt down in the tank.

My current two don't need additional feedings - they do ok without but all other fish not.

Thanks for taking the time to write this up. I doubt I'm really getting a mandarin as I am extremely empathetic with my animals and would probably not risk it, however I am just curious if there are viable options.

Just a few questions. Mysis are so much bigger than pods, if one eats mysis several times a day, how is that not sufficient? Especially in a small tank where you can guarantee its eating the mysis?

I was only planning on having 2 clowns, a firefish, royal Gramma and maybe a rainford or greenbanded goby. However I would be satisfied with just 2 clowns and a mandarin. I only want a few fish to be happy and also don't want to deal with excess nitrates and phosphates. my focus is equally on coral. I'd even consider only mandarins and coral.

This is a new tank, no sump. 60lbs live rock, 50lbs live sand (ocean direct), no refugium. That is why I asked the guy above what he does to keep 2 in a 18" sumpless cube.

I have seem personally mandarins fat off mysis in Sumpless refugium less tanks. one person supplemented pods via culture just incase, one did not.

I had mandarins that ate huge Mysis and had no problems gulping them down. It's of course also depending on the size of the mandarin.
Back in Germany I had access to live freshwater Mysis almost all year round. I used those to get my mandarins, seahorses and other fish to get used to them and it worked all the time. After a short period they figured out that the dead were the same as the live ones and started picking them from the ground.

BTW, I would never again keep a single mandarin - get a pair or don't get one at all. (the last should actually apply to all fish)

 

[snorvich]

Well, the question is, ThRoewer, is the average aquarist on this board able to replicate what you did.