Orange Spotted Filefish

[Monkeyfish]

I've been following this thread and other similar threads with great interest. However, I'd like to play the devil's advocate for a bit. Wholesalers get these fish in by the thousands. The vast majority die long before they even make it to the LFS. Of those that do make it, almost all die in a few weeks. Some make it 2 or 3 months. There is that rare specimen tht may actually survive in a hobbyist's tank, but this a rare exception.

A friend of mine who is a marine biologist believes that until we have a better understanding of this specie's nutritional needs we are not going to have long term success in keeping them. Several hobbyists have had success at getting them to eat, but the fish typically do not live longer than 3 months. Obviously there is something that's missing from the diet or environment we provide them. The only success with Oxymonacanthus longirostris that I know of is at Atlantis Marine World. I believe that they have had a pair of orange spot/harlequin files for approximately 12 months. Of course those 2 fish are in a 20,000 gallon reef system.

IMO this is one of those cases where, until we learn more hard scientific data or, at the very least, attempts at rearing these fish are done in a more empirically controlled method, these fish are best left in the ocean.

 

[LisaD]

I don't disagree with you, completely, but I think we may be closer than you think. The people posting about their experiences are advanced hobbyists, and very qualified to take on this difficult species.

From a pragmatic perspective, empirical studies will not supply the answers. At the hobby level, it is not usually realistic or economically feasible to design statistically valid, controlled, empirical studies of the sort you would use for publication in a refereed journal. Very few research institutions or public aquaria are prepared to take on this kind of work, and if they do, it's usually one person with a particular interest, who has limited time and resources for the project.

However, the cumulative experiences and shared knowledge that comes from the participation of advanced hobbyists in threads like this do move the hobby and husbandry forward. As people learn and share their experiences, we will see repeatability in others' tanks, and repeatability of results is the hallmark of successful scientific discovery.

An example:
I saw this happen in the 6 years I have been involved with a popular seahorse hobby site. The combined efforts, observations and sharing of knowledge and experience has moved the seahorse keeping hobby to the point where several serious hobbyists on the site regularly breed, raise and sell healthy captive raised stock. When properly cared for and fed an approrpriate diet of frozen food, these animals can live for years. This was almost unheard of in 2003. Not only has captive breeding advanced, but knowledge of nutritional needs and disease diagnosis and treatment moved forward as well.

One of the members, a pathologist, did many necropsies on seahorses at his own expense to determine which races of an important bacterial pathogen were responsible for a large number of seahorse deaths, and which antibiotics would be most effective against the pathogen. Much of this information did not appear in refereed scientific publicaitons or anywhere else.

When wild caught seahorses handled in a reasoable manner are quickly transferred to the tanks of experienced hobbyists, the survivability is much higher than had been, just a few years previous. Handling of seahorses by wholesalers and even collectors or those that export "net pen raised" seahorses seems to be changing as well to improve survival.

Back to Filefish:
Greg, Renee and I have a friend that lives in Australia who kept an orange spotted filefish in one in her very simple and not excessively huge tank for several (3, I think?) years. It never ate coral, just frozen, I believe. She has posted pictures. Her fish was likely less starved and stressed than those that arrive in the US. Her experience suggests that these fish, if they arrive in good condition or if they can be brought back to good condition, and maintained properly, CAN survive long term on a diet that does not consist of corals.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Monkeyfish--I agree with you that this fish should only be available by special collection or as captive-bred. That way, only people who really want them would be able to get them and that would eliminate impulse buys of these fish, which are almost certainly doomed to failure.

Other than that, what do you suppose the odds are that I would get the one fish that can survive longer than 2-3 months, if it's just random chance? 1 in 100? Let's use that.

So, we'll assume that it's just random chance that I got _two_ of the fish that would survive in a hobbyist's tank. At 1 in 100 odds, that makes the chances 1 in 10,000 (100 * 100) that I would have randomly gotten the two fish that would survive.

I personally don't think I'm that lucky.

I think it's much more likely that the foods in the hobby are finally getting better nutritionally, such that we can better meets the needs of more difficult fish. I also think that there has finally been a recognition that animals that eat constantly in the wild don't survive very well on being fed every other day.

Afterall, this is a species that _has_ been captive-bred (and the young reared past metamorphosis) with broodstock subsisting solely on substitute foods. Mine have been spawning regularly for months now (though I've not tried rearing them yet). What do you suppose could still be missing from the diet? And if their diets are really nutritionally deficient, would the fish really be producing regular spawns of viable eggs? Wouldn't spawning be the first thing to go as the fish tried desperately to avoid starving, giving that spawning is so energy-expensive?

And, another question for you: How exactly are we going to learn how to keep these fish if no one tries? There aren't any scientific grants for determining conditions required for keeping fish in the hobby. So, if it's going to get done, people are going to have to do it for free. And who will that be? Hobbyists.

***Soapbox alert*** The truth is, though, I'm with you on leaving as many fish as possible in the oceans. But for that to happen, we need more people trying to raise as many captive-bred fish as possible. And for that to happen, either hobbyists need to step up to the plate and recognize that the extra money they spend on captive-bred fish is worth it (for many reasons), or the price of wild-caught fish needs to go up enough to make the price of captive-bred fish attractive. If either were to happen, many more hobbyists would start to explore captive-breeding and breakthroughs would likely come much more quickly. And the hobby would be better off for it. ***/end Soapbox***

 

[LisaD]

I'm with Andy -

leave fish in the ocean, special collection, efforts focused on captive breeding - it has worked beautifully with seahorses

to add, IMO spawning fish are happy and healthy fish. how many hobbyists have fish of any type spawn in their tanks?

I'm not in a rush to go out and try this species. If I had the time, I'd do it, but until then, I'll just tag along.

You COULD make the argument that threads like these encourage novices to make impulse purchases. That's a valid point. In that case, I'd suggest a mod move this thread to the fish breeding forum, where it will be safe from most impulsive newbies.

 

[Monkeyfish]

Ummm - don't confuse luck with probability. The odds of any one person winning the lottery are astronomical. The odds of SOMEONE eventually winning are a near certainty. Why shouldn't you be the one to get a successful breeding pair? Someone has to.

I'm in agreement with your and Lisa's arguments to a point. However, a couple of "successes" does not prove anything. My definition of success would be to keep the fish for close to it's natural life-span - not for 2 months or even 2 years. For every fish of this species that survived more than 3 months there were literally thousands that died. To say that those fish that made it survived because of anything the aquarist did is impossible to substantiate.

Even if all of the "successful" hobbyists fed the same foods, it's far more likely the reason the fish survived has to do with some undefined similarity between those few specimens rather than the food that was provided. If it was the food then most or every specimen given that food mix would survive.

I'm not against furthering the hobby. I'm not against experimentation. I'm just not in favor of random trial and error that encourages poor business practices resulting in large scale deaths of living things.

I wish those of you making the effort the best of luck. I'm just not ready to try this myself until I know a little more about what these fish need.

 

["Umm fish?"]

For everyone with a fish of this species that survived more than 3 months there were literally thousands that died.

That is also true of clownfish. Should we stop keeping clowns?

how many hobbyists have fish of any type spawn in their tanks?

If you feed them, they will spawn. (With my apologies to fans of baseball movies....)

 

[Nanook]

[moved]

 

[Monkeyfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15754145#post15754145 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"
That is also true of clownfish. Should we stop keeping clowns?

I don't believe that's correct. Clowns have a much lower mortality rate during shipping and a much higher success rate in captivity. There's a good chance that a store bought clown will survive and even thrive in captivity. Not so much for the filefish we're discussing.

 

["Umm fish?"]

The odds of any one person winning the lottery are astronomical.

Yes, but the odds of _me_ being the winner are a heck of a lot better if it turns out that I have some control over the chances.

I have already talked earlier in the thread about the fact that the foods that eventually work for the fish that survive turn out to be different in many cases. I really does turn out to be a lot less like following a recipe and a lot more about watching the fish, from what I can tell.

 

[Monkeyfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15754220#post15754220 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by "Umm, fish?"
I have already talked earlier in the thread about the fact that the foods that eventually work for the fish that survive turn out to be different in many cases. I really does turn out to be a lot less like following a recipe and a lot more about watching the fish, from what I can tell.

In which case the food may have nothing to do with anything and you really have no idea why these particular fish are surviving.

Sorry, empirical background. Couldn't help it.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Yes, but I have no idea why I survive either. Nor do I know where words come from when I need to type them, now that I think about it. Nor do I even know if you exist. (Ahhhhhhh ... descent into solipsismmmmmmm....)

But I think I'm up to about 10 different species of fish spawning in my tanks in the last seven months, including these guys, cleaner wrasses, sixlines, mandarins, seahorses, etc. I'm telling you: It's the food. If they have enough nutrition and a partner, they _will_ try to spawn.

 

[Monkeyfish]

Of course I exist. I post on RC therefore I am.

You may be correct. I'll be more convinced if they're still alive in a couple of years.

...and my remark wasn't philosophical. It was simply an attempt at illustrating the lack of accounting for the existing variance.

eeeeeeeeee... this was a test of the rational empirical testing system. We now return you to your normal suppositional programming.

 

[Monkeyfish]

RC = Enemy of work productivity

 

["Umm fish?"]

No doubt. I did typeset a book today in between all the posts, though.

As far as numbers go and as far as I can tell, of those who eventually get at least one of their fish onto frozen foods, the survival rate to at least 6 months is about 80%. That includes the fish from this group that never take to frozen and starve.

And as far as Descartes goes, I think not. Therefore, I am not. Ahhhhhhhhhh......

 

[Monkeyfish]

I think not; therefore I am a politician.

 

["Umm fish?"]

You know you're tired when you start making philosophy jokes....

 

[seahorsedreams]

What did I tell ya Lisa. This is why our success or our failure will be kept to ourselves.... well at least not here.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Hi Renee! But isn't the whole point of the site to raise the level of the hobbyists in general? That is, aren't we trying to turn every hobbyist into as advanced a hobbyist as possible, rather than leaving them in the dark to stay beginners forever? Otherwise, why have sites like these, anyway?

In the end, isn't that the way to save as many animal lives as possible?

My goal is to present what information I have, and to not sugarcoat the difficulties, time, or costs involved at all. If people are going to get these fish, I want their eyes open about what kind of commitment they are taking on. That's why I try to be careful to hammer home the difficulties over and over.

 

[seahorsedreams]

I hate to say it, but I think I'm loosing my forum drama tolerance after all these years. Certain forums/clicks just have too much drama and I avoid them. I mentioned in another thread, I actually hung up on my husband for posting in that forum about them LOL! (I see now this topic was moved). Well actually, I was more ticked that he did so after I said.... and I actually said it, "Don't you dare post this on RC". O.O

I guess the laid back forum of the FOWLR is more my style.

I love sharing, I just find some other avenues more receptive to sharing topics like this.

My work is very adrenaline driven.... my forums has to be 70s laid back.

 

["Umm fish?"]

Aha! I see what you're up to.

Truthfully, I'm not sure that I believe this really belongs in the breeders' forum, since it's more about fish husbandry and training than about raising larvae. It sounds to me like the idea was to hide the thread away. I don't really understand why it'd be a good topic for a RK article but otherwise you have to hide it? Yeah, I just don't know.

***Shrugs. Wanders off to bed.***