Pairing Clownfish

[JHardman]

A fellow recently posted to my saltwater list that it was ok to put a "school' of clowns (>5) into a tank all at once and that one the female and male were established that the others would be ok.
Is this true? I just need to be sure before I try to respond to him further. (I asked for a reference to support his thought.)
Tagamet

In the short term yes it will work. In the long term, in a confined environment, it may result in problems. In the wild, clownfish form hierarchies with a mature breeding pair and lower ranking sexless fish. The lower ranking fish will try to promote themselves sooner or later. This is not a problem within the ranks of the sexless fish, however when a member of the breeding pair is challenged, the challenger will either succeed by driving off or killing it's rival, or it will fail in its challenge and be driven off or killed. And this is where it can become a problem in a confined tank environment, no place to be driven off to...

Something that so many people forget about when they start thinking about doing a hierarchy of clowns. Clownfish can live for decades and having a more or less peaceful hierarchy for a few months or even a couple of years is no great measure of success considering these fish can live 10-30 years.

I have yet to hear of any credible stories of long term successes in keeping a hierarchy in anything less than a public aquarium sized tank. I am not saying it is not possible, but so far no one has stepped up and said ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œI have six A. whatever_species of clownfish in the same tank for five years without any deaths or stress related disease outbreaksââ"šÂ¬Ã‚.

 

[Tagamet]

Jhardman,
Thanks so much for the reply. I'll cut and paste it off to the list.

On a VERY happy note, I just got an email notifying me that the bonded pair of tank raised, adult Clarkii clowns I ordered from ORA are in Pittsburgh, where I'll pick them up this weekend. They have spawned twice already at ORA, so I'm really stoked! It's only an 8 hour drive from my place to Pittsburgh and back, so they'll only have a 4 hour "ride" to get to their new home.
Tagamet

 

[sharpy98]

Sweet thread...... Thank you

 

[Tagamet]

JHardman

JHardman

Jhardman,
On a VERY happy note, I just got an email notifying me that the bonded pair of tank raised, adult Clarkii clowns I ordered from ORA are in Pittsburgh, where I'll pick them up this weekend. They have spawned twice already at ORA, so I'm really stoked! It's only an 8 hour drive from my place to Pittsburgh and back, so they'll only have a 4 hour "ride" to get to their new home.
Tagamet

UhOh! Now I'm hearing that the clowns are huge. The female is 4 inches and the male 3 inches. I was going to use a 40 gallon tank as their love nest. Now I'm wondering if that will be large enough. I have a 58 and a 120 I could use, but those tanks would be far less manageable than the 40. Do you think that I can get away with using the 40 with a 20 sump, or will this be too small? Would there be any drawback to trying them in the 40 and moving them to a larger tank if they don't spawn?
TIA,
Tagamet

 

[JHardman]

Re: JHardman

Re: JHardman

UhOh! Now I'm hearing that the clowns are huge. The female is 4 inches and the male 3 inches. I was going to use a 40 gallon tank as their love nest. Now I'm wondering if that will be large enough. I have a 58 and a 120 I could use, but those tanks would be far less manageable than the 40. Do you think that I can get away with using the 40 with a 20 sump, or will this be too small? Would there be any drawback to trying them in the 40 and moving them to a larger tank if they don't spawn?
TIA,
Tagamet

You should be fine with the 40g. The place you got them from likely had them in a 20g cube before they sold them to you. The important part is being able to keep the water parameters up, which you should be able to do with 60g volume, all that LR you have in the sump and a good skimmer.

 

[Tagamet]

Re: clown beasts

Re: clown beasts

You should be fine with the 40g. The place you got them from likely had them in a 20g cube before they sold them to you. The important part is being able to keep the water parameters up, which you should be able to do with 60g volume, all that LR you have in the sump and a good skimmer.

Thanks, yet again. I'll keep the group posted on "our" progress.
Tagamet

 

[Amphiprionclarkii]

Success!

Success!

I finally caved in and got another perc at the LFS like I was wanting to do. We (including the guys at the LFS) were all nervous about whether or not my clown would kill the newcomer. Anyway, I got a very small (1" at most) perc and brought it home. As soon as I let it out of the bag, he swam over to the female and there wasn't the slightest sign of agression. They both got into the same host on the first day! JHardman, I salute you for this thread!

A. clarkii

 

[Tagamet]

Re: Re: clown beasts

Re: Re: clown beasts

Thanks, yet again. I'll keep the group posted on "our" progress.
Tagamet

I just returned from a 9 hour drive from NC and was up until 5 a.m. working on the LATEST MESS. I returned to find that a seal on my clownfish system had broken and drained about 35 gallons of water on the floor. Thankfully it was the sump's seal, so the fish tank just drained down to the outlet of their tank and the clowns are ok (so far). Even though I was at it until the wee hours. I am no way near done working on restoring circulation. I'm taking a break to get my heart rate down (coronaries run in my family), so I thought I'd vent here with my "progress". I don't know whether to spit or cry or both. Boy, that sounded less than manly.
Jawsette did eat exactly 2 mysis shrimp before I left for NC, but none today that I could tell. The water quality is still ok, but I'll swap out 5 gallons with fresh today, just to be safe (er).
Tag
PS AND we lost the soccer game.

 

[moorediddy]

Two males?

Two males?

Slap me if this is extremely obvious, but I wanted to make sure....

If I get two young males, one should make the switch to female after a little dominance game, right?

-moore

 

[Tagamet]

clown beasts update

clown beasts update

I just returned from a 9 hour drive from NC and was up until 5 a.m. working on the LATEST MESS. I returned to find that a seal on my clownfish system had broken and drained about 35 gallons of water on the floor. Thankfully it was the sump's seal, so the fish tank just drained down to the outlet of their tank and the clowns are ok (so far). Even though I was at it until the wee hours. I am no way near done working on restoring circulation. I'm taking a break to get my heart rate down (coronaries run in my family), so I thought I'd vent here with my "progress". I don't know whether to spit or cry or both. Boy, that sounded less than manly.
Jawsette did eat exactly 2 mysis shrimp before I left for NC, but none today that I could tell. The water quality is still ok, but I'll swap out 5 gallons with fresh today, just to be safe (er).
Tag
PS AND we lost the soccer game.

Well, The rug is almost dry and sleeping on the couch is getting a little better, but the really good news is that Jaws and Jawsette are both looking ok and now both are eating- even flake. This might still work out.
I'm putting out a book on my new method of water changes, but my publisher says that it won't be a big seller with the spousal population...

Tagamet.
PS Guess what! We go away for soccer AGAIN this weekend. Be still my heart. I can only guess what I'll come home to this time (g)
PPS Hotel beds are softer than couches.

 

[JHardman]

Re: Two males?

Re: Two males?

Slap me if this is extremely obvious, but I wanted to make sure....

If I get two young males, one should make the switch to female after a little dominance game, right?

-moore

I am assuming that you are under the impression that clownfish are hatched as males, which is incorrect. Read the "sexing clownfish" link in the first post of this thread for the details.

If I am wrong in my assumption... Yes if you place two males in the same tank, one will establish dominance and become female.

 

[moorediddy]

I've read this whole post, along with the FAQ on sexing. I'm fully aware of the "one way" journey they take, from unsexed to male, to female. Sorry if I sounded like I was too lazy to read, but I wanted to make sure about this, since it wasn't specifically mentioned. I was hoping to get two YOUNG ocellaris, but the store claims that most of their young fish are already sexed. So, I will most likely be getting two males, and just wanted to be SURE it wasn't a problem. I figured one would just change, but wasn't sure because in the Grow Out Technique, it sounded like you were referring to pre-sexed fish.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion, it was a stupid question.

Thanks again for these informative posts on clowns, they've helped a lot.

-moore

 

[JHardman]

I've read this whole post, along with the FAQ on sexing. I'm fully aware of the "one way" journey they take, from unsexed to male, to female. Sorry if I sounded like I was too lazy to read, but I wanted to make sure about this, since it wasn't specifically mentioned. I was hoping to get two YOUNG ocellaris, but the store claims that most of their young fish are already sexed. So, I will most likely be getting two males, and just wanted to be SURE it wasn't a problem. I figured one would just change, but wasn't sure because in the Grow Out Technique, it sounded like you were referring to pre-sexed fish.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion, it was a stupid question.

Thanks again for these informative posts on clowns, they've helped a lot.

-moore

Unless your LFS is buying just the male half of an established pairing or are splitting pairs when they come in, then you are buying sexless fish just like everyone else. Assuming they are all in a community tank and <2" you can safely assume they are all sexless and not physically mature enough to even change yet. Worst case is that one fish has ruled the herd long enough to become female, but that is very rare and would take an exceptional fish to totally dominate a large group of fish long enough to mature and become male then female.

No it is not a stupid question at all. You were going on what the LFS said, which is highly doubtful. They are likely under the impression that clownfish are hatched as males, like many LFS out there. Or they think that at a certain age/size they change sex, which is also incorrect. I would like to know how they think they are sexing the clownfish. :lol: They only way to know 100% for sure if one fish is a male or a female is to see them spawn and lay eggs or produce sperm. In an established pair you can safely assume 99% of the time that one is male and the other is female. But with a large group of clowns in a community tank at the LFS, it is VERY VERY unlikely you could assign a sex to any fish in there. :lol:

 

[KillerReef]

First of all, this thread is awesome. Thank you JHardman for the wonderful information.

Currently, I have an A. percula, approx. 1.5-2". I have had him/her/it for about 6 months. He originally came as a smaller half of a pair, but he is far from being sexually mature, so I would guess it is still an "it".

Anyways, according to LiveAquaria.com, what they have are black and white PERCULA I really would like one of these for a partner for my current clown, not necessarily for mating, but for friendship. Currently, there are no other fish in the tank.

I have also read in another thread that using either of your above techniques, there should be no problem mixing A. ocellaris and A. percula, if the good doctors are misinformed.(I emailed them regarding this, and they stated "We are informed by our vendor that they are Black and White Percula

BTW, there is currently no host and I do not plan to get one.

TIA,
Dave

 

[JHardman]

First of all, this thread is awesome. Thank you JHardman for the wonderful information.

Currently, I have an A. percula, approx. 1.5-2". I have had him/her/it for about 6 months. He originally came as a smaller half of a pair, but he is far from being sexually mature, so I would guess it is still an "it".

Anyways, according to LiveAquaria.com, what they have are black and white PERCULA I really would like one of these for a partner for my current clown, not necessarily for mating, but for friendship. Currently, there are no other fish in the tank.

I have also read in another thread that using either of your above techniques, there should be no problem mixing A. ocellaris and A. percula, if the good doctors are misinformed.(I emailed them regarding this, and they stated "We are informed by our vendor that they are Black and White Percula

BTW, there is currently no host and I do not plan to get one.

TIA,
Dave

Hi Dave

LA is wrong, and their breeder knows better. Those fish come from TCM in England and they know they are black A. ocellaris. The problem is most likely species name versus common name. Frankly most LFS wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t know the difference between a species name and common name if it bit them in the ***.

Anyway at 2" your "it" is most likely a she now, especially if she came in as part of an existing bonded pair. You shouldn't have a problem pairing the black A. ocellaris with an A. percula.

 

[KillerReef]

Thanks for the quick reply, that is what I was hoping to hear. One last question, would I be better off paying the extra $10 to Etropicals to get their USA tank raised black clown , which they state as an A. Ocellaris BTW, or is it all the same?

 

[JohnM99]

I have 2 small clowns, bought from LFS from a tank with 30 or more originally, captive raised, which were a bit less than 1" when bought. One was very slightly larger than the other.

They have not fought much at all - occaisional dance of the smaller one chasing the larger - darting towards it only about 2-4 inches - no biting - the larger one looking a bit submissive. But, they swim together all day, and sleep close to each other at night.

I did notice that they both fed well at first, but in a couple of days the larger one did not feed as much as the smaller one - the smaller one was lively, and zipped around sampling everything - the larger one seemed to be a bit "inhibited" - it would start to swim towards a food particle, get close, and then stop - and not ingest it.

After 2 weeks, the larger one has resumed eating more vigorously - everything else seems fine, water test fine, etc.

My question is - was this dip in feeding just a feature of a fish getting acclimated to a new tank, or was it perhaps the start of a dominance pattern? Was this slightly larger one becoming established as the male, and deferring in feeding a bit to the female?

Thanks
John

 

[JHardman]

My question is - was this dip in feeding just a feature of a fish getting acclimated to a new tank, or was it perhaps the start of a dominance pattern? Was this slightly larger one becoming established as the male, and deferring in feeding a bit to the female?

Thanks
John

At this point neither have changed sex yet, they are not old enough.

It is hard to say if the feeding behavior is the result of acclimation stress or dominance issues. If the slightly smaller fish was competing for the food and the larger did not eat as a result, then yes you can safely assume it was a result of dominance behavior.

What you are using is a grow out technique since there is not a significant difference in size. With this technique the dominate fish will generally be the larger fish, but it is quite possible that the small will be dominate and sooner or later out grow the larger fish.

From what you describe they are still acting like they are in a large group with neither really getting after the relationship building. This will end sooner or later, likely when they are 110% comfortable with the new tank. It sounds like they are compatible, and you should have a good pair in a couple of months.

HTH

 

[MFish]

I already have one occelaris in my tank. The 'Introducing a new clwon' technique would be the way for me to go, so would my current female [if it is infact a female, as I've only had her 2 weeks] become a male when I add a smaller occelaris?

(The wording of the technique was somewhat confusing, sorry if this sounds stupid)

~Mike

 

[JHardman]

I already have one occelaris in my tank. The 'Introducing a new clwon' technique would be the way for me to go, so would my current female [if it is infact a female, as I've only had her 2 weeks] become a male when I add a smaller occelaris?

(The wording of the technique was somewhat confusing, sorry if this sounds stupid)

~Mike

Clownfish are protandrous hermaphrodites, sexless to male to female on a one way trip, no going back.

So when you add a smaller fish to pair with your current fish, they will work out who is dominate (likely the larger) and the dominate fish will become male then rapidly female when old enough. The submissive fish will become male. The dominate fish will grow (depending on species) to be the larger of the pair.

HTH