Pale, Brown and Sad - what's my gameplan?

in my experience cotton candy is impossible to get rid of, once you have it in your system you cannot get rid of it completely, you can keep it at bay at best. You can starve your tank but it will not help as this algae can survive in extremely low nutrient conditions, and your corals will suffer especially if you do not have enough light. Mexican turbo snails will eat this stuff, I have lots of snails in my tank that keep rocks clear of cotton candy, and any other algae. In my opinion little algae growth is a sign of health, if you have no algae growing in your tank then most likely corals will not grow either as they both utilize the same food source. Key is to eliminate algae with clean up crew/gfo so nutrients can feed the corals before algae can use them up.

I would try adding more snails/clean up crew to combat algae in the display, and keep running gfo, I had to eventually turn my refugium light off completely to get rid of cotton candy from my sump, even in complete darkness it survived 2 months.
here are my tank shots, you cannot see any cotton candy but I have it in my system.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1760909
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1760909&page=2
 
Last edited:
d0ughb0y said:
wouldn't all the snails be dead if that was copper?

anyway, I would just manually remove the algae as much as possible, and just reduce the feeding and just monitor if the algae comes back or not, if it comes back, does it come back slower, etc.
Click to expand...

i'll work on removing algae manually (and via turbo snail -- they are actually making respectable progress in the fuge) when i do my next water change on Monday. i'll monitor further growth, as well.

I can't really tell if you have enough flow in your sump, but the rubbles and the dsb could reduce the flow and cause algae.
you can feed the media reactor return to your filter sock, it helps specially right after putting in new media.
Click to expand...

i have fairly low flow in my sump to increase skimmer/fuge contact time. my tunze 1073.020 return pump, after head loss, is probably putting out only ~300gph. that was intentional, but i agree that it's not the best method for keeping detritus from settling.

(i am actually currently feeding the reactor into the filter sock because i just changed the media -- i usually remove it after a few days though)
 
cagri said:
in my experience cotton candy is impossible to get rid of, once you have it in your system you cannot get rid of it completely, you can keep it at bay at best. You can starve your tank but it will not help as this algae can survive in extremely low nutrient conditions, and your corals will suffer especially if you do not have enough light. Mexican turbo snails will eat this stuff, I have lots of snails in my tank that keep rocks clear of cotton candy, and any other algae. In my opinion little algae growth is a sign of health, if you have no algae growing in your tank then most likely corals will not grow either as they both utilize the same food source. Key is to eliminate algae with clean up crew/gfo so nutrients can feed the corals before algae can use them up.

I would try adding more snails/clean up crew to combat algae in the display, and keep running gfo, I had to eventually turn my refugium light off completely to get rid of cotton candy from my sump, even in complete darkness it survived 2 months.
here are my tank shots, you cannot see any cotton candy but I have it in my system.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1760909
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1760909&page=2
Click to expand...

you have a gorgeous tank! thanks for the advice. i agree, i think maybe adding some snails to control growth is at least a temporary solution. there is certainly ample food for them in the meantime. And, I'll keep the GFO/carbon running.

what about the carbon/bacteria dosing (or vodka solid pellets)?
 
Again, I have the same sump as you and also had the super deep sand bed in the fuge. Shop vaccing out my DSB in the fuge and removing the LR was the best thing I did-- I found all sorts of nastiness and detritus trapped in there.

Just a spossibility too concerning the filter socks.. Not sure how you clean yours but for awhile I was throwing mine in the washing machine with bleach (no soap) and I'd notice my skimmer would always act bubbly and weird for a few hours. I'm sure there was still a trace of soap in the washer and possibly phosphates trapped in the socks via the rinsing.. I now soak my socks in a bucket of RO/DI water after they are washed before using..

Other can chime in concerning the carbon/bacteria dosing. I've been doing Zeovit for about three weeks now, and can already see some results. NP Biopellets sound great as well, they just haven't been around for as long as Zeovit, hence people are still trying to figure out the best way to use them. They acoomplish the same goal though, ULNS.
 
I feel that two issues, SPS color and algae that you concerned may not link to each other. I don't know others but to me your SPS color does not look too bad, considering some of them are still frags. I saw some brown and tissue loss but they are many factors which could cause them, nutrient level is just one out of many. I would say as long as you keep your parameters in check and stabilize them, and no pest issue, you should see color improvement.

It also looks to me that algae is not that bad at all, I have seen tanks with much worse algae issue still having decent SPS color. But if I am in your shoes, on top of running GFO and manual remove, I will try introducing bacteria to battle with algae, the very affordable quality bac source such as MB7 in conjunction with small dose of vodka to fuel bacteria (small dose is important - max 0.5 ml for your tank size ). Keep dosing initial dosage (high nutrient dosage) of the MB7 until the bacteria get the upper hand, it will take some time and most likely you will have side effort of bacteria booming (brown slime on glass and rocks) and cayno, but these are easier to deal (bacteria booming normally disappear after you switch to low dosage of MB7, cayno is normally reduced by cutting vodka and still keep MB7). Don't forget to make sure that your skimmer is running 7X24, because bacteria multiplying take lot of oxygen, you don't want to loss your fish due to low oxygen.

Check out this thread for journal of battle.
 
BTW, you can dose MB7 alone without vodka, the daily high dose of MB7 for certain period will hopefully dominate algae (at least for me). Without vodka you are less likely to have cayno and other issues. You will most likely to have bacteria boom after a week or two but it will be good for now because that means the bacteria is taking over surface area, once you switch to low (maintenance) dosage the boom will be gone.

If you really want to dose vodka, dose low is very important.
 
Ycore said:
Again, I have the same sump as you and also had the super deep sand bed in the fuge. Shop vaccing out my DSB in the fuge and removing the LR was the best thing I did-- I found all sorts of nastiness and detritus trapped in there.

Other can chime in concerning the carbon/bacteria dosing. I've been doing Zeovit for about three weeks now, and can already see some results. NP Biopellets sound great as well, they just haven't been around for as long as Zeovit, hence people are still trying to figure out the best way to use them. They acoomplish the same goal though, ULNS.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting up some pics, I think that really should help us understand.

Yeah seeing your sump sand bed I thought that that should go too. There are people out there who love their DSB but I think they are best for LPS dominant systems. If you pull it out, there are all sorts of options you could consider for replacement, Zeovit or NeoZeo would be my suggestions. You'd probably have room for another media too. The way that I understand it, until you remove the excess sand you should not start dosing as that will break down the nutrients trapped in the DSB and sand.

The loss of the coraline algae is puzzling, but it does indicate to me that this is a problem of high nutrients and perhaps your CA and dKH was low at one point. I'm going to have to think on it. But to cheer you up the color on the green slimer is good and some of the frags are not bad. But you are right about most of them, they are looking unhappy.

Thoughts:
1) Consider removing the sand in the fuge.
2) Here's a weird/probably unpopular idea: consider growing caulerpa in the fuge. I had in it my DT (can you say "rookie move"?) where it massively out competed everything and sucked up nutrients like a champ. I of course eventually had to hand remove it, which was a pain, but it was effective. Really effective. If you are at the end of your rope, I would do that, grow caulerpa like mad, have it lock up a lot of your nutrients in the growth and then remove it and switch to stronger chemical media filtering methods. People might say it'll go sexual on you (mine never did), so do some research and consider the risks and rewards. I would strongly consider this at this point in the game.
3) I asked earlier about the top off containers and you said that it was in a plastic gas can. This makes me nervous for some reason--who knows what they coat that with to stop petrol from corroding it? It's like the 3M sponges, they coat them with antibacterial spray so they are unsafe on aquariums. I'd get rid of them (since they are possibly the only phosphate source) and just use some food-safe plastic (check around on the forums for the number of food safe plastics I think it's #1-3 but double check that)--or just get something glass like a bell jar or a spare fish tank, glass for sure is the best way to store water.


More thoughts to follow (well, let's hope :hmm4:)
 
well, i've been doing some research on sand beds and carbon/bacteria dosing, and just generally thinking about what i'm doing a little bit more. i've also just finished (mostly) reading Reef Aquarium Volume 3 (Sprung/Delbeek).

i have been hesitant to switch to any kind of ULNS strategy (zeovit/vsv) because of two things: 1) existing DSB; 2) being stuck with it once you start.

at this point, i'm keeping temperature stable (77.5-79.0 all day), trying to keep parameters stable (alk slipped ~0.5dkh, but it's back up now -- Ca is stable). I've also added a fair amount more GFO media to my reactor and had some turbo snails working on my sump. they got it clear in just a matter of a few days. i moved one of the snails up to the display and left the other to keep the sump clear. i feel like my algae growth has slowed, but i could be deluding myself.

meanwhile, i've noticed no real difference in coloration of the corals. my largest SPS coral is an orange digitata (pictured in the "Left Tier" photo), and it has been looking rough for 2-3 weeks now. it may be recovering, but slowly. polyp extension is pretty bad, and some of the polyps have actually turned pale/white. it has a small bit of algae growing on the tips. i tried to blast it off with my tunze 6025, but it was stuck on there. something similar started ot happen to my purple digitata at about the same time, but it has mostly recovered at this point.

going forward, i have a couple items on my wish list: a controller, 2 peristaltic dosing pumps and an RODI unit. i'm going on vacation for a week in 2 weeks, and i'm trying to figure out what's going to be most beneficial in the interim (probably the dosing pumps, right? i'm having to add 10ml of Ca/Alk every day right now)


does anyone have any thoughts on flow rate over the DSB? i've got less than 300gph going over it (probably less after accounting for bio-buildup in my plumbing).
 
Vacation aside, I would say that the RO/DI unit is the priority, the influx of nutrients has to be from your water in some way. I got a nice one from BRS for $100. The flow over the DSB sounds ok, I've seen those kind of numbers, but that's not really an area I am familiar with.

When you get back from a relaxing vacation I'd hit that DSB and take it out.

Good luck on your tank into the future. Keep us updated on how it works out and if things change.
 
well, here we are 3 months later, and there has been very little improvement (if any).

i added a red planet; it went from purple with a little green to pale/white with purple tips on the corallites within 2 weeks of adding it. i guess whatever is wrong still isn't fixed.

my frogspawn has wasted away to almost nothing (tissue has just receded over the course of about 4-5 months; i removed it from the tank yesterday and gave what was left to the LFS to try and recuperate it.

i've developed a minor amount of cyano in some spots right below my vortech (just not getting flow it needs, i guess). a little bit of hair algae, too, though the turbos are keeping it reasonably under control. definitely getting some hair algae on my glass.

my phosphates and nitrates (as they always have) measured at 0 on Elos test kits yesterday.

i've cut my feedings down pretty significantly, and i'm hardly feeding any PEMysis anymore, and i've cut out the roti-feast and AquaVitro Fuel entirely. skimmer production is almost non-existent (i haven't had to empty the cup in 3 weeks, and at this rate, it'll still be several weeks before i have to).

getting some reasonable-ish growth out of my SPS (especially my green slimer, pink mille, purple digitata).

noticed during my last water change that my return pump is hardly providing any flow to the tank. it's running out of the return lines, but at closer to a "strong trickle" than a flow. i wonder if that's causing detritus collection in my sump due to the flow being too low.

anyone have anything to add?
 
It's a shot in the dark, but I saw a big improvement in my tank when I switched from H2ocean salt to tropic marin coral pro. I was having a lot of hair algae issues with h2ocean that went away with TMCP

Why is your Tunze return pump having such poor turnover? If it really is a trickle I guess it could be an issue of insufficient turnover in the tank.

You could also try sending your water to aquariumwatertesting.com and see if they see some sort of paramater that is way out of line that you don't test for.



timdanger said:
well, here we are 3 months later, and there has been very little improvement (if any).

i added a red planet; it went from purple with a little green to pale/white with purple tips on the corallites within 2 weeks of adding it. i guess whatever is wrong still isn't fixed.

my frogspawn has wasted away to almost nothing (tissue has just receded over the course of about 4-5 months; i removed it from the tank yesterday and gave what was left to the LFS to try and recuperate it.

i've developed a minor amount of cyano in some spots right below my vortech (just not getting flow it needs, i guess). a little bit of hair algae, too, though the turbos are keeping it reasonably under control. definitely getting some hair algae on my glass.

my phosphates and nitrates (as they always have) measured at 0 on Elos test kits yesterday.

i've cut my feedings down pretty significantly, and i'm hardly feeding any PEMysis anymore, and i've cut out the roti-feast and AquaVitro Fuel entirely. skimmer production is almost non-existent (i haven't had to empty the cup in 3 weeks, and at this rate, it'll still be several weeks before i have to).

getting some reasonable-ish growth out of my SPS (especially my green slimer, pink mille, purple digitata).

noticed during my last water change that my return pump is hardly providing any flow to the tank. it's running out of the return lines, but at closer to a "strong trickle" than a flow. i wonder if that's causing detritus collection in my sump due to the flow being too low.

anyone have anything to add?
Click to expand...
 
I was feeding PE mysis heavily and always fighting algea (although mine was hair, not cc). I also could never seem to keep both my lps and sps happy. It was either or. When I was in the LFS about 2 months ago, I decided to try some Rod's reef food. That is the ONLY food that has gone in the tank in 2 months and my tank has never looked better! Not only has the algea started to recede, but my lps and sps both look great. I also try to keep my mag a tough higher than you have it, I aim for 1350. I find that my system is easier to "handle" there. I would bump up mag, and try switching to Rod's. hth!
 
1leftygolfer said:
Noticed earlier in the thread you changed your weekly water changes of 5 gal to bi-weekly. Why?
Click to expand...

well, at first i was worried i was stripping too much out of the water. i've gone back to weekly now that i'm confident that i have excess nutrients (despite my tests that still show 0 nitrates/phosphates, i've got small amounts of cyano and plenty of cotton candy/hair algae/glass algae).
 
gatsby174 said:
I was feeding PE mysis heavily and always fighting algea (although mine was hair, not cc). I also could never seem to keep both my lps and sps happy. It was either or. When I was in the LFS about 2 months ago, I decided to try some Rod's reef food. That is the ONLY food that has gone in the tank in 2 months and my tank has never looked better! Not only has the algea started to recede, but my lps and sps both look great. I also try to keep my mag a tough higher than you have it, I aim for 1350. I find that my system is easier to "handle" there. I would bump up mag, and try switching to Rod's. hth!
Click to expand...

i've cut back feedings pretty significantly. my fish aren't picky (and i've got shrimp, hermits and nassarius snails that are happy to eat whatever the fish don't).

as far as Mg goes, that's another funny thing -- using D-D h2ocean salt, which is supposed to have high Mg, but somehow my Mg still winds up falling pretty rapidly (despite my supplementing it via BRS 2-part solution). i don't know what happens to it. It's actually dropped down to 1150 recently. I am working on getting it back up to 1300 (or higher).
 
ChicagoReefOne said:
Vacation aside, I would say that the RO/DI unit is the priority, the influx of nutrients has to be from your water in some way. I got a nice one from BRS for $100. The flow over the DSB sounds ok, I've seen those kind of numbers, but that's not really an area I am familiar with.

When you get back from a relaxing vacation I'd hit that DSB and take it out.

Good luck on your tank into the future. Keep us updated on how it works out and if things change.
Click to expand...

i can't see a problem with the water. the LFS uses water from the same reservoir in their tanks, which are fantastic (Atlantis Aquariums in Richmond). the only possible issue would be with the gas cans i'm using to transport the water. but, frankly, i've been using them for over a year, so any impurities should've been washed out by now, worst case scenario.

i wound up getting the BRS dosing pumps rather than the RODI unit, just because i didn't think i could trust anyone to dose correctly while i was gone. they've been ok, though i don't think they are dosing at quite identical speeds, which is a bit of a hassle.
 
First, get your own RO/DI. By using someone elses water you are not in control of nutrient import, you have given that to the person who monitors that water supply. If you suspect your salt then change brands to Tropic Marin
Second, why the DSB? Thats just a big nutrient trap in your sump. You were definaltely overfeeding and may still be. Having overfed your tank for an extended period you now have a nutrient rich sand bed that is going to continue leaching nutrients back into your system. Detritus has settled in it and will give you phosphate and nitrate problems. Phosphates bond to the ca carb based sand and will slowly leach it back in. If it were me I would turn off the pumps and totally remove the sand bed and throw it away. If you really feel you need it then wait until you have your tank dialed in and add some new sand back. Your other option is to change your GFO every week until you have no algae growth. But be prepared it may take months longer to get the nutrient levels down
And finally stability, corals are very tolerent of temp swingsbetween 75-82, but not tolerent at all of alk swings get that dialed in and your corals will be much happier. Sounds like you are close to getting that down but stay on it until you have it down pat.
 
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