people who go with "almost" no Water Changes needed!

[Purple Rocks]

May i ask Randy,

Can heavy metals and the sort evaporate along with the water?
If not, does any impurity evaporate along with the water?

thx

 

[Paul B]

But I don't hate you Paul.

Oh yes you do, and so does Randy but I am a lot older than he is so he has to respect me.

I just flat out do not believe that new salt water is 'unhealthy'

I don't believe a lot of things but, and there is a "but",
I did not say that. Be careful or I will set my killer amphipods on you. :worried:

I did say.

that older water is healthier in certain respects

Oh wait, you got me, I did say near the end that new ASW is unhealthy. Dam, I didn't think anyone saw that part. Good thing it is just my opinion.:wave:
I did mean it is not as healthy as older water in some aspects.

See, you have to read the little nuances and don't do Evilyn Woods speed reading:reading:
But you are correct, I did say that, the secret is out. I like old water better so I guess I will just dump out my tank and start over.

 

[discocarp]

Now Paul, we all know you aren't going to go changing all your methodologies because I posted one comment. And if you are that enthralled by my opinion, it is also my opinion that you should pay off my mortgage.

I was mostly objecting to that specific comment I quoted. I just don't believe it. I would have no problems doing a 100% water change right now in my tank. And my corals would be absolutely fine with it. I know this because I've done it on more than one occasion, or at least very close to 100%.

 

[Paul B]

Now Paul, we all know you aren't going to go changing all your methodologies because I posted one comment.

Dam, and I was just going to try to talk everyone into installing an UG filter.:beer:

Send me your mortgage statements so I can submit them

 

[sirreal63]

Paul, even though your tank may not be the "norm", you have a system that works. You have a healthy and diverse amount of life in your tank, you export very well and use NSW and that is what is what makes it work. It is in balance but it didn't get that way over night. I do believe that "aged" water has benefits, but this is just an observation. I tend to change water more frequently on a new tank than one that is older. I have done large water changes in the past when my tank was failing and it corrected it, I have also done small frequent changes, small infrequent changes, large infrequent changes and not noticed any impact when the tank was otherwise healthy.

You already know (I hope) that I am a fan of what you do and how you do it. It isn't for me, my setup is different but I absolutely hope you never make any change to that tank that would be detrimental, it is one of the best tanks around.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

May i ask Randy,

Can heavy metals and the sort evaporate along with the water?
If not, does any impurity evaporate along with the water?

thx

No, metals cannot evaporate from the water. Ammonia is one of the few things we encounter that can. Hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell) can. There are a bunch of small organics that do as well, leading, for example, to the smell you detect at the ocean. Those evaporated organics can take out bromide and chloride with them (as things like methylbromide, CH3Br).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

"Artificial" sea water is not sea water which is why it is called "artificial" It is an aproximation and is lacking most of the elements in real water which has every chemical known and unknown to man along with compounds that took millenia to form. Eventually ASW takes on properties of real seawater through the actions of bacteria and algae.
This is Randy's deal as I am an electrician and he is a chemist.
(Randy I got this from Guido Huckstedt, I didn't invent it.)
but it goes along with my theory that if some tanks go without water changes and look great, we are missing something.

Not sure I agree with that ( ) but I will say that I did a water change with natural seawater a month ago using water I collected myself, and detected no changes at all.

FWIW, I didn't expect any change, but I did want to bring in some new bacteria to freshen what was available.

 

[Paul B]

but I did want to bring in some new bacteria to freshen what was available

Randy, so you practice one of my methods, we are making progress. :lol:

Jack, thank you.

you export very well and use NSW and that is what is what makes it work

Actually with the 100 gallons or so I change a year, only about 10 or 15 gallons of that is NSW. The stuff is heavy and for some reason it gets heavier every year.

I tend to change water more frequently on a new tank than one that is older

I said that also. A newer tank needs time for the bacteria to function properly and I don't think a $2.00 test kit is the best thing or only thing that we should be concerned about when we talk about cycling. Bacteria take months to stabilize and eventually colonize the areas where each type of bacteria feel "comfortable" and are not over colonized by other strains. All surfaces are covered in bacteria but not all bacteria works for our purposes. It may take a while for a type of bacteria that may be the predominant bacteria in a tank to be taken over by something that is beneficial for us.
That is also why I add bacteria from the sea. I feel that over time, bacteria, although is covering everything may not be the best type for us.
Again, this is all my opinion and I am a slightly senile retired electrician and certainly not the God of bacteria.
I will also say (and you don't have to believe this either) but a new tank, with all new water is much more prone to infection and paracites. Literally all of the ich posts are in new tanks. I wonder why.
If you don't believe me, search for them and look how long the tank has been set up. Then look at 10 year old tanks and see if any of them have ich problems.
No one addresses this but it must have something to do with the age of the tank and what happens to it as it ages. Yes of course the owner has more experience but I can buy a fish from anywhere or even catch it in the sea and in 10 minutes throw it in my tank with no problems as I have been doing for decades. No ich, velvet, fin rot, bacteria, nothing. But in a new tank you almost have to quarantine or else I can almost guarantee your fish will come down with something. Why is that?
Again, don't believe me? Search for diseases and note the age of the tank.
When my tank was new it too was an ich magnet and I lost probably more fish to ich than all of you put together. After the tank aged 10 or so years, I had no problems with paracites or anything else.
Care to address that? :bum:
I don't think it is my good looks, because I am not that good looking and it is not luck because I am not that lucky. So what is it?
Remember my tank runs a UG filter, no sump, no reactors or dosers.

 

[SCIFI_3D_zoo]

I just wanna know why Randy or somebody official won't research this.. do a new RC Article.. and explain how we can have tanks like this with no wtr chgs. I don't know why anybody would fight this. It's such a time consuming and expensive thing for me. Even if it's just once a year or whatever it would save all of us a lot of time and money. Nobody can deny that there isn't something worth looking into here. Since everybody is hanging on Randy's articles there should be a new RC Article about it.

 

[Paul B]

Not sure I agree with that

Ok, but as a chemist you will agree that real sea water that has been sloshing around for quite a while contains all of the minerals on earth being it is the universal solvent correct?
ASW contains maybe 74 chemicals or it used to, maybe now thay add some more.
NSW also has compounds in it that were made by algae as well as compounds that were made by animals such as the slime from corals and fish as well as poisons from poisonous animals, volcanic fallout, radon, meteorite dust and whatever happens to it when lightning strikes the water as it has been doing for billions of years. Much of it also has been boiling from magma or hot sulfuric deep sea vents.
Has any lightning struck artificial water? I don't know but I also don't know if it would change it's properties in ways that we can not test.
You may also agree that we really don't know if any of this stuff is beneficial or detrimental but it is a fact that every animal evolved in the stuff.
You yourself are not sure if iodine dosing does anything or hurts anything, I don't either):facepalm:
I am not saying ASW is bad, I am saying that something beneficial happens to it as it ages. Of course other things happen to it as it ages that may not be beneficial, but then we have to argue as to why do older systems seem so much more stable where large animals can die with no problems? No cycles or bacterial blooms.
You have to admit that older systems have less, not more problems which I submit "proves" that older water is "not" detrimental to our systems.

If nothing else, those two guys stopped argueing with each other

 

[Purple Rocks]

Thx on the quick answer
Makes sense though metals dont evaporate, doh.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thx on the quick answer
Makes sense though metals dont evaporate, doh.

No problem. Lots of things only seem evident in hindsight.

 

[discocarp]

I am not saying ASW is bad, I am saying that something beneficial happens to it as it ages.

I'm not convinced of this. I'm also not not convinced of this. What I will say is mature TANKS can be much healthier than new set ups in my experience, assuming they're well maintained of course. I'm certain that the rock gets better as it ages in a lot of tanks. I think that is due to the life on the rocks. I'm less convinced sand ages well. Could the water age well? I can't discount it. You can count me in the group that has used natural sea water in my tank in the past. I used to collect in general a lot more frequently than I do these days, but that is mostly because of time.

 

[Paul B]

I'm not convinced of this. I'm also not not convinced of this.

Well It's a good thing for me that I am not here to convince anyone of anything. Just giving my opinion from experience. :beer:

Now I am going to look at my tank and see if I can pick out some of the water that has been in there for 40 years and see if it looks healthier. I am not sure it is totally mixed in there yet. :facepalm:

 

[Thiago Marini]

I do 20% water changes every 15 days on a 300L aquarium.

 

[schriss]

I do 20% water changes every 15 days on a 300L aquarium.

I never do. I dose whatever is needed. Pellets and skimmer take out nutrients.

 

[schriss]

I'm still going without water changes, it's 3rd year now.
Because I'm dosing a lot of different things apart from Mg/Ca/Alk, I know certain microelements can build up and this might not be desired, so I use Poly-Filter every now and then. Purigen is in my tank all the time (I change it every now and then of course). Carbon is in my tank most of the time too.
Any other ideas? Anything other to look out for apart from microelements buildup?

Added gallery today: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/album.php?albumid=6792

 

[chris88]

I haven't done water changes in years on sps reefs. I skim wet and I do have to add salt to top of water.

 

[schriss]

Yes, I top up salt water when needed too, but I don't even remember when was the last time.
I also skim wet when I'm at home, but setting to dry when working.
I'm dosing those daily/weekly: Alkalin8.3, PH+, Calcion, KoralleVM, Replenish, Strontion, CoralAmino, KoralColor, Vitamarin-C
Also manually dosing Iodine, Iron and Potassium but only after testing first.

 

[M3AN ONE]

8 months no water changes and skimmer less. All I do is top off with RO once a week about 15-20 gallons
Specs 300 gallon tank 300lbs of live rock 150 gallon sump with built in 40 gallon fuge. The fuge has calerpa chateo and 3 inches of Miracle mud.

Inhabitants
1 desjardini tang 1 snow flake clown 1 cleaner shrimp as we'll as a couple of hermits and 1 emerald crab

Corals
Kenya tree rock full of recordia and 3 sps frags.
All levels are by the book. Will be adding reactors when needed. Last fish to get will be a blonde naso tang unless I can get my hands on a dragon moray for a good price.
My philosophy low load big tank easy life. Not against a skimmer or water changes just haven't needed any and probably won't any time soon.
The only con is there are a lot of filter feeders in the tank and I constantly have to scrape them off the glass. Come to think of it that makes me wonder if the reason most people have problems with keeping non photosynthetic corals are due to the fact that there skimmers remove to many beneficial organically that they would normally feed on.