Petco and icthyocide

[grimmjohn]

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6238795#post6238795 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jasonanatal
Your store maybe be an oddity from the other chains Grimmjohn but the majority of Petco shouldn't be allowed to sell Marine Fish with their inhumane methods.

That may be true, I know I'm usually disappointed from a hobbiest standpoint by most petcos, but that's cuase they don't really have much a serious reefer needs (or can't get elsewhere), except some fish, but I've got my pair of clowns, don't want the wrasse of the tank to be a sixline, won't add any shrimp, eels, dwarf angels, chromis, damsels, tangs, firefish etc..I'm tapped out on fish basically, certainly from the stuff they carry...and they don't carry tridacnids or acros so I'm out () : )

I've never seen a store like some of the people on this thread described so I don't really know what to do or say, the worst store I've ever seen was a LFS, not that the fish were being badly kept, they just didn't have much and didn't know anything about them/reefs.
That does suck for those fish and the people that shop (shopped) those petcos. All I can say is what I've already said, a good aquatic specialist and manager can make a very decent fishstore, a decent manager that doesn't know a thing and doesn't have a decent (or any) aquatics specialist can still do pretty well if they just follow the husbandry guidelines and assign people maintainence jobs to do. You might not get the nitrogen cycle explained to you in detail or anything, but the fish will probably be alright.
A bad manger/aquatics specialist could easily let the deptartment slip into an abyss though, which I'm sure is what many people are describing.
That's not the fault of "petco" per say, if they can't find a decent aquatics specialist as I mentioned, but I guess it is if the manager sucks that bad. Though as many people have mentioned, one petco can be crap, and the one in the next town could pimp the LFS, it just depends on the people there at the time.
I'm sure it may be more ethical for stores to discontinue carrying fish until they have a decent manager/specialist/track record, but that's a lot to ask of any corporation, crappy LFSs don't shut down on their own, they have to go out of business.

Cheers,

grimmjohn

 

[grimmjohn]

Well, today when I came in the two dog-face puffers were showing signs of ich, which means every fish in the system is possably infected. I asked the manager what they do in the case of saltwater ich and he said "uhm treat it." So I asked him how they treat it and he said "I thought you would know?" So anyway, I look up what the "corporate" solution to ich is and it just says "treat with copper." Great, that will really help most people. Anyway, so I go to the shelfs to look for some coppersafe (not that I would feel very good about using copper on puffers either, it would be better to let them try to get over it theirselves IMO than treat them with copper, but the rest of the fish should be fine.) Anyway, we didn't have any coppersafe, and there was a blue dot on the sticker...I was told that means we are out and will never be getting anymore in??? So the "rules" are to treat ich with "copper," yet we don't have any?
I know others have mentioned this predicament earlier in this thread, but it seems weird when it happens to you personally ya know...anyway..we did have some crap with malachite green in it (don't want to dye the display do we?), and we had some crap with formaldahyde in it (don't feel to good about that), and we had some stuff with quionine in it (don't feel to good about that either), so I've decided I'm going to do the safest, 2nd most sure-fire thing, I'm going hypo on the whole system for a month or so. We don't have inverts and even if I did treat with copper (dispite the puffer's sensitivity to it) I can see somebody selling a fish while I'm not there and not telling the customer about it and then them going home and just dumping in the bag and taking out whatever inverts/coral they may have in their tank, not to mention we could never put inverts in the display again, and not to mention the copper level has to be meticulously mantained, and since I'm not there every day and can't trust anyone else to do it then it would be nearly useless, and at the worst deadly.
Anyway, back to the hypo..so today I took the salinity down to 1.0015, and Sat when I go in I'm going to take it down to 1.009. I'm not even telling anyone about it cuase I doubt I could convince them that's the best thing to do, and I know they wouldn't find out by theirself
So hopefully in a few weeks our SW tanks will be completely free of ich, yeh () : )
Though I am kinda worried about the koran and the hypo I don't see any other option that doesn't involve more tanks, and I don't have the authority to set up any more, and I'm certain the managers wouldn't like using that much store merchandise.

BTW, funny story, today we got in some ORA clowns...we got in three B&W false percs, but when I got in we only had 1..and he wasn't in with the percs...he was in with the 3-4 stripe damsels!!! I'm pretty sure that somebody sold a pair of B&W percs for $3.99 each (2.99 with pals card :lol cuase they thought they were damsels!!!
Some hobbiest got a good deal () : )

The red sea purple tang's lateral line is starting to not look so good, I'm pretty sure it's cuase he's cramped and not eating anything. I put two false percs in and he started swimming around more but he's still not eating. If he gets any worse he may "die" so that I can take him home where he'll at least have some LR to pick on, maybe rejuvinate a little (though not many come back from lateral line disease (if that's what it is, though it can't be very advanced cuase he don't look that bad)), and then I can get him to a hobbiest that can take better care of him. Maybe I'll ask a manager if I can just take him home to see if he will get any better and then bring him back cuase I really think the poor guy is going nowhere. I would take him home now (and make sure we don't get any more in) but $75 is a lot even with a 20% discount.

Anyway, that's petco land, been working there 2 weeks now, shoulda got paid today, but my check didn't come in, go figure.

Cheers,

grimmjohn

 

[billsreef]

John,

The Koran will be fine with Hypo, as will be any fish


BTW coppersafe is heavily chealated which makes it well tolerated, even by copper sensitive species like puffers.

 

[grimmjohn]

Thanks for the heads-up bill, I learn something new every day on this site () : )

I guess it's moot though since we don't have any, I guess I could buy some from another store and bring it in but I'm not there every day and can't trust anyone else to dose it for me oh and nobody knows the volume of the display system so dosing anything wouldn't be too easy, I guess I could call MARS, though hypo is easy, just turn on the water and watch the hydrometer.

Thanks again for the reassurence, I can't wait to go in Sat and watch the salinity fall (and my fish clear up) () : )

Cheers,

grimmjohn

P.S. Any comments on the RSPTang?

 

[BrianPlankis]

When you sell the fish to customers, make sure you mention that they need to slowly adjust the salinity. Going from 1.009 to 1.026 is going to be a huge shock if not done slowly.

B.

 

[billsreef]

John,

Marineland should be able to tell you the volume. However, if you want to calculate it yourself, the formula for volume in gallons is LXWXH/231=gallons. The meausrments need to be inches, and should be the inside measurements to give you actual gallons held.

BTW if you want to have some fun and get mad at aquarium manufacturers, apply that forumula to standard tanks like a 55. None of them hold the stated "size" :eek2:

For the Tang, try feeding it carrot shavings. They are high in both vitamin C and vitamin A. Hopefully the store is already getting some for the guinea pigs and such, and you just steel one

BTW when it comes to buying items out of pocket for a store, be sure the manager will reimburse you Makes no sense for an underpaid associate to shell out money to help a multimillion dollar store chain

Oh, and CirolanidHunter is quite right about being insuring your customers do a drip while your running hypo.

 

[grimmjohn]

Thanks for the tip Cirolanid, I plan on it, and I guess I should warn everyone else what I'm doing in case they sell a fish while I'm not there, I just hope none of my managers/coworkers are think I'm crazy () : )

Bill, thanks for the tip on the carrot shavings, we do have some in a bag of mixed salad stuff, I'll pick them out for the tang.
I also have heard about the volume discreprency...apparently manufacturers are more worried about being able to stack the sizes inside each other?

I actually went in this morning on my own time and fed all the fish and lowered the salinity down to 1.011...one of the clowns that came in and immediatly layed on the bottom and started panting has already perked up, I guess cuase he's saving energy with the hypo?

"Makes no sense for an underpaid associate to shell out money to help a multimillion dollar store chain"
--I don't care about the chain, just the poor tang, if I were not an employee I would hope they learn a lesson from it's death, but I am an employee so I feel more responsable for the fish ya know...

Cheers,

grimmjohn

 

[Ploppers]

Speaking of koran angels. The Petco here had one in their tank for probly 2 weeks. I was going nuts rubbing up against the rocks and gravel in the tank. The aquatics specialist told me it was just because it was getting its adult colors. That's not true is it? Anyway it died later that week.

Oops I just noticed in my earlier post I said the salinity was at 1.019 I meant 1.009. Maybe they were doing hypo on the whole colum, but they had a lot of inverts in that colum.

 

[grimmjohn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6258225#post6258225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ploppers
Speaking of koran angels. The Petco here had one in their tank for probly 2 weeks. I was going nuts rubbing up against the rocks and gravel in the tank. The aquatics specialist told me it was just because it was getting its adult colors. That's not true is it? Anyway it died later that week.

That's not true, and sorry it died () : (
Ours is about 8-9 inches and it is partially adult colored..but does not rub at all. Our Koran sold today before I got in, not a bad fish for $40, though not one of the prettier large angels IMO.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6258225#post6258225 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ploppers

Oops I just noticed in my earlier post I said the salinity was at 1.019 I meant 1.009. Maybe they were doing hypo on the whole colum, but they had a lot of inverts in that colum.

Maybe, I hope it was deliberate () : ), I bet the inverts were not happy.
By the way, we got some "turbos" in that are actually astreas.
And I told my manager about the hypo so that he could tell anyone he sold a fish too, and it sounded like he was on board, then I come back from lunch and the salinity is back up at 1.022...Errr...On the street we call that "baller blocking"
And he printed off the new petco corporate guidelines...apparently the one's I saw were from 2003, the new ones say to NEVER use copper in the SW display.
The 2005-2006 Marine Ich Guideline:
To treat one fish: Take the fish out of the display and place it into freshwater for 5-10 minutes.
That's it, no mention of temp, buffering, pH etc...
I guess the point is to either kill it or just knock off some ich spots so it's sellable again? No mention that if one fish in the system has it then they all potentially do, or that the fish still has ich/will get ich again soon as it lays down again.
Anyway, back to the guidelines:
To treat the whole system:
If many fish throughout the display show signs of ich then turn the temperature up to 83F and do a 50% water change every week for 2 weeks.
I **** you not. So the point here is to quickly let the ich kill all the fish it's gonna kill, and let the fish that are gonna get over it get over it quicker.

Oh and I only have 32 hours this week, still haven't been payed yet, all is not well in petco land.

cheers,

grimmjohn

 

[billsreef]

The 2005-2006 Marine Ich Guideline:
To treat one fish: Take the fish out of the display and place it into freshwater for 5-10 minutes.

Now that would be absolutely hilarious, if it wasn't meant seriously

While a FW dip can be very effective on some ectoparasites, it is not effective on Marine Ich at all. Here's a very good article on the subject by ATJ, an Australian aquatist with a very good understanding of the subject. You might want to print it out to show your boss, and be sure and point out the list of references from scientific journals. Something I'm sure the fish disease ignorant person that came up with that "policy" can not provide to support that silly position of FW dips for ich.

That said, doing FW dips on fish you get before they go in the tank, can remove a number of troublesome parasites. Most noteably flukes, which are all too common from some wholesalers.

 

[bookfish]

edit

 

[grimmjohn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6266995#post6266995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billsreef
Here's a very good article on the subject by ATJ, an Australian aquatist with a very good understanding of the subject. You might want to print it out to show your boss, and be sure and point out the list of references from scientific journals.

I actually already had that bookmarked (and Steven Pro's article) () : ) And am very familliar with ATJ, for some reason we always end up posting in the same threads over in the SPS forum...it's kinda funny () : )
That said, thanks for the link () : )
Though I doubt I will get into one upmanship with my boss and his precious Petco guidlines, that probably can't end well..(though when I was telling them about the hypo I mentioned that "the PhDs are on my side") () : ) Well, I'd like a pay check before I get into one upmanship anyway () : )
That said, it sucks that my employer's idea of "treating" sick fish is just try to kill them quicker...sounds kinda dystopia like, I wonder if there is a "Room 101" waiting for me

Thanks billsreef, cheers,

grimmjohn

Oh P.S. Came to work yesturday and the powder brown we've had that I had been working on since I started (it wouldn't eat and looked like crap but I had finally got it eating well and it was coloring up beautifully) had ich spots and was laying in a corner breathing fast, then died 5 minutes later...totally out of the blue (if two other fish didn't already have ich)...anyway ****ed me off.

 

[tokitay]

OK Everyone, Here is how you do something about it!

Don Cowan is the director of media relations for Petco. He is very accessible, I just called him on his cell phone and got right to him.
Don was very concerned, and asked if I could forward the info from Reef Central to him.

Can one of the moderators please e-mail this thread in its entirety to DONC@Petco.com. Don is at their corporate headquarters at 858-453-7845.

Also, anyone who has had a bad experience, please e-mail Don!

Being a business owner, I realize things happen. Unfortunately, every business works from the brains down, so expressing our concerns to store clerks is often an exercise in futility.

In order to truly help our beloved hobby, it would sure be nice if everyone who has posted would e-mail your comments to Don at Petco. He has the power to help fix a big problem!

Thanks,
Lee

 

[tsutherland]

I know what you mean I posted this
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=726660

If only we could all ban together and do something. I called corporate and was told that they will look into it. I told them to take my info and that I wanted the district manager to call me and let me know what he or she is doing to correct the problem. I am thinking about witting a local news station and try to get a problem solver like story done on it.

 

[grimmjohn]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6270518#post6270518 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by tokitay
Unfortunately, every business works from the brains down, so expressing our concerns to store clerks is often an exercise in futility.

Being little more than a "store clerk," I don't know if I should be offended by my implied impotence or my implied brainlessness () : )

Also, considering I do kinda like my job, and that I can't make any difference without working here, and that my profile and first post on this thread contain everything anyone with access to a petco employee database needs to single me out, then you'll have to forgive me if I'm not too excited about using this thread as ammo for your crusade.

Cheers,

grimmjohn

 

[Texas Aquarist]

I try to stay away from Petco whever possible.

 

[jpslickorocks]

Grimmjon I really don't think tokitay ment you in particular. I personally think you are doing a great thing in trying. Tokitay was saying that in general. I think you are an exception to his statement. You are one of the goodguys buddy.

 

[billsreef]

tokitay,

Take a look at the little blue links just under the quicky reply box, the middle one is "email this Page". Feel free and use it to email Don the link to this thread. Since you have his cell number, I'll bet you have his ear better than most

 

[75oceanic86]

Its pretty depressing for me to go into petco, all of those sick and dying fish, and im pretty certain they dont even feed their fish. The petco by me has three large groupers, prob 5-6 in. confined in those tiny little square tanks. Surprisingly enough they have stayed alive for a while but thats prob because whenever i go there i make sure each one secretly gets a feederfish.

 

[tsutherland]

I talked to Mak Henderson from Petco today, he is a regional companion coordinator. He told me that the store that is close to me should not even have inverts. And he said that he talked to the store that I was in and that they are treating for ich, I will see next time I am in there if that is true and I will also see if they are feeding well because all of the fish I saw looked way to skinny. He also said that only stores with special desplay tanks should be carring the corals and other inverts. I brought to his attention that the knowledge of most of the employees working around the saltwater displays is poor to none. He said that the company knew that and they were going to start making employees take a class per say on marine life to get an idea of what is going on. I was also told to call him back if things did not get fixed. Have any of you seen these special tanks for the inverts, because I haven't. this is his number 858-395-3159 and assuming he is not blowing smoke he seems like he really cares. He may not be able to help where you are but I would say that he could get you pointed in the right direction. I tried and am still trying to do what I can but it is going to take all of you that have a problem with the way things are done at Petco to say something too.