Petco Picasso "mislabel" thread

[WDLV]

I choose the latter, my tomatos occassionally come out with bulldog looking faces, underbites, etc... They make great dither fish.

I think that might be possible in a Darwin tank. That is a tank that is large enough to not have to worry about the fish population and which if I were to add 150 anemonefish that the weak ones would be naturally weeded out.
For fear of fringing on OT, I think the point is that we as hobbyists need to self regulate what quality of fish are most prevalent in the industry. I have bought crappy looking fish too but only when I didn't know better. I tend to believe that that's why most people buy the lesser fish. They don't recognize that "stubby" vertebrae, underbites, flared gills, or mis-shapen fins are weaknesses that should be discouraged.
The point being when you get a steal of a deal, are you really getting a deal or is the vendor selling you a lemon?

What's the big deal about slightly deformed fish? These fish are not being introduced into the wild and therefore will never affect phenotypes of wild populations. So really it boils down to who is buying the fish. If it looks good to you, then buy it. What if we culled every dog or cat that is not perfect? Don't think that would ever fly. Just because they are "less than perfect" doesn't mean they should be condemned to death! Give the poor little fishes a break, be happy that the deformed fish in question hopefully found a loving home!

I used to feel this way too but the truth is that sometimes our fish do make it into the wild. Look at the massive lionfish problem on the East coast of the US. What if the same thing happened with poorly bred anemonefish in the South Pacific? A lot of those hatcheries are found not far from the water. All it would take is one bad storm or tsunami. That's not the main reason that I feel that way. Just saying...
I now tend to think that they should be euthanized to be humane versus my old way of thinking being that they should not be euthanized to be humane.

 

[MarinaP]

Fish breeding world mirrors dog breeding world. There are kennels that strive to preserve and improve the breed, avoid genetic problems. They do cull whole litters if problems occur.

And there are backyard breeders, who throw malformed sick mutts at the consumer passing them as true breed. Both business models exist and have customers. All depends on customer's desire to do some basic research.

 

[kichimark]

But Nemo was deformed :hmm4:

 

[WDLV]

...and a Pixar animation. Animated characters can survive almost anything. Think Wiley E Coyote.

Roger Rabbit sure was afraid of paint thinner though.

 

[elegance coral]

In the past few years, once "designer" clowns gained popularity, public perception of a normal CB clown shifted to accept subpar fish because of its' cool markings. Body structure, symmetry of fins, skull shape, gills, bite are sacrificed to produce unusual patterns in mass quantity.

I do agree with you 100% on this.

I have nothing against well-formed, bright colored, proportionate clowns with more (or less) white. I am strongly against turning breeding efforts into puppy mills' scheme that produces mediocre offsprings with undesirable genetic traits.

Again I agree with you. In fact, I would rather have a regular wild caught clown that is a perfect representation of its species, than a captive bred fish with really cool marking, but abnormal features. One of my favorite fish I own is a regular brown polymnus. Nothing fancy, but she's built flawlessly which makes her incredible to me. In the clownfish thread, I was raving about someones clarkii. Other people chimed in to say there's nothing special about a "black clarkii". I had to explain that it wasn't the pretty markings that made the fish special. It was the healthy structure of the fish that set it apart from most.

To answer EC's question about culling - I would have culled that fish because of the underbite without a doubt.

If I ever start seriously breeding, I'd like to think I would cull like crazy. After all, you build your reputation on the fish you sell. If you're a business, you can't cull every fish that has an imperfection though. You wouldn't have much left to sell. Sometimes there's a fine line between, do I cull this fish or not. I'm sure every breeder out there has a different standard they use to make that decision. I've seen fish with under bites that I would have culled without a doubt. I wouldn't have culled the fish we're talking about though. The under bite isn't that bad. The person that bought it, is thrilled to have it, and if they wanted to sell it to someone else for $20, people would be standing in line with their wallets out. For me, making the decision to cull a fish wouldn't be an easy one. I'd do it, and I'm sure my anemones would lover it, but it surely wouldn't be easy. Good things can come form deformed fish. I'm sure you've seen the mother of all the Rod's Onyx clowns. While I don't believe her problems are genetic, if I ever raised a fish like that, I wouldn't think twice about culling it. She may be grossly deformed, but she went on to produce one of the most popular strains of clowns in the hobby.

 

[bues0022]

EC - where was that thread about the black Clarkii stuff? I have a very black clarkii and would like to compare a bit.

 

[bues0022]

The examples you gave to support your theory all showed mis-bar, none of them were even semi.
Instead of more quality grade A or semi, the market is flooded with mis-bar and deformed fish. LFS as well as chain stores are passing them as Picasso.
On the other hand, Doni's reef keep lowering her standard for Grade A and B. Just take a look of what are on her website today.
LiveAquaria is selling some grade B pair for $175 in diver's den.
A LFS in my area is passing grade B (very nice one though) as grade A and asking for $150 per fish.
A locate chain store has not yet able to get good quality semi recently (the manger is a great guy who can tell the difference)

Also, how often do you see a good pair of grade A show up on Doni? I know recently a local guy just paid $250 + shipping for a pair of very small but high quality grade A.

BTW, do you own a pair of picasso?

I think you might have me confused with others in this thread. I have not posted any pictures of any clowns in this thread. Nor have I "given support" of any of the clowns that were posted. As I originally stated, I was trying to start a discussion to see what others thought the origination of these fish that are quite obviously not your standard clownfish was.

No, I do not currently own a pair of picassos, but I'm not sure that ownership has any direct relevance to the credibility of one's opinions.

 

[elegance coral]

EC - where was that thread about the black Clarkii stuff? I have a very black clarkii and would like to compare a bit.

Here ya go. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1868747&page=2 Let me know what you think.

 

[clowns101]

I do agree with you 100% on this.



Again I agree with you. In fact, I would rather have a regular wild caught clown that is a perfect representation of its species, than a captive bred fish with really cool marking, but abnormal features. One of my favorite fish I own is a regular brown polymnus. Nothing fancy, but she's built flawlessly which makes her incredible to me. In the clownfish thread, I was raving about someones clarkii. Other people chimed in to say there's nothing special about a "black clarkii". I had to explain that it wasn't the pretty markings that made the fish special. It was the healthy structure of the fish that set it apart from most.



If I ever start seriously breeding, I'd like to think I would cull like crazy. After all, you build your reputation on the fish you sell. If you're a business, you can't cull every fish that has an imperfection though. You wouldn't have much left to sell. Sometimes there's a fine line between, do I cull this fish or not. I'm sure every breeder out there has a different standard they use to make that decision. I've seen fish with under bites that I would have culled without a doubt. I wouldn't have culled the fish we're talking about though. The under bite isn't that bad. The person that bought it, is thrilled to have it, and if they wanted to sell it to someone else for $20, people would be standing in line with their wallets out. For me, making the decision to cull a fish wouldn't be an easy one. I'd do it, and I'm sure my anemones would lover it, but it surely wouldn't be easy. Good things can come form deformed fish. I'm sure you've seen the mother of all the Rod's Onyx clowns. While I don't believe her problems are genetic, if I ever raised a fish like that, I wouldn't think twice about culling it. She may be grossly deformed, but she went on to produce one of the most popular strains of clowns in the hobby.

I recently took down my breeding system(family member moved in).But,when I had it up,I culled my fish to the following standerd:

1)Fish's pattern must be normal or mis-bared to be placed in my "normal tank"

2)If the fish's patterns was more unique like a slight Piccasso with the bars moving in a funky pattern I would place them into my "not so normal tank".

3)If the fish's mouth had a overbite that was beyond noticable,I would place it in my sump and let it grow and kinda let nature run is course.

4)Fish with tiny fins and not normal body shapes,would be placed in in a tank that would just house the fish till nature rans its course,basiccly till they died.

Thats just an over view of my idea of what I would call culling,but Im not a pro breeder.

 

[bues0022]

Here ya go. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1868747&page=2 Let me know what you think.

Thanks for the link. Stunning clarkiis over there. I'll put a pic of mine up tomorrow, and want your brutally honest opinion!

 

[elegance coral]

Thanks for the link. Stunning clarkiis over there. I'll put a pic of mine up tomorrow, and want your brutally honest opinion!

LOL. You know my opinion is always brutally honest. :lol: Looking forward to seeing those pics.

 

[bues0022]

Take a peak, they're up! I'm obviously biased and a big fan, but I can take it and not flame you for an opinion!