pipefish or seahorses in your sump

Regardless of the point on benthic, seahorses have a tremendous propensity for picking up bacterial diseases, wherever the bacteria comes from, and by experience it has been found to keep the temps below 74°F for fewer problems. I don't have documentation, but I have experience.
When I started some years back, I figured that with 12 years reefing experience, I wouldn't have any problems with seahorses, even at reef temperatures. I would be the exception.....in spite of what I was informed on the major seahorse forum.
After loosing a couple of seahorses and a couple of pipefish, I dropped the temperature and haven't had a problem with them except when I went on holidays 1 1/2 yrs ago, the sitter turned off my cooling fans when doing a water change, forgot to turn them back on, and temperatures raised.
When I got home, the seahorses were seriously ill with the female loosing part of her tail. It took a long antibacterial treatment regime to save the seahorses.
If you check out the big seahorse forum, you will see just how important it really can be, and just how many have problems while keeping slightly higher temperatures.
In their natural habitats, there isn't a big problem but when in a captive system, elevated temperatures really boost bacterial growth.
FWIW, Ann would be the first person I would contact if I had seahorse illness, just as so many others in this hobby do. She has devoted her time to compiling information on seahorse illnesses and diseases, and then helping other hobbyists save their horses.
 
teesquare, one of the pinned threads in this forum is about NOT mentioning other forums here... I think that is why you aren't getting links and the like here.
So, the "typical" reef temps are contraindicated for pipes and horses, and so a plumbed in 'fuge wouldn't make them a great home. And, as previously mentioned, they will eat your 'pods, so a "'fuge" it would no longer be. This is even more of an issue with the pipes than w/ the horses. They also, of course, create their own waste... seahorses generate a good deal of waste. And you have to feed them a good deal -- dedicated mysis feedings for horses, and have either a pod set up for the pipes or train them to take frozen -- either way, you are adding food. So, essentially, you would be taking an area that was previously helping to balance out your main display and turning it instead into a nutrient import, rather than export.
***Oh, and if you keep horses in an area where you are going to be pulling algae out regularly, make sure you examine it closely. People have accidentally tossed out their beloved creatures.
 
Rayjay:
Thank you for at least a more informative, and well detailed experience which is relevant to my questions.
Do you know the publisher of the book mentioned above ( "Working Notes", or the publisher - or author? Can't find anything on it yet)
And as for the FWIW - frankly., it must be beneath Ann to respond to poignant questions on "a hobbyist site" those are her words in her last post....funny I see no credentials listed....But she does apparently like me to feel she is an "expert"... Those do not exist in this hobby folks. No one is above the humbling experience of their own defeats and failures. Want to be considered a helpful hobbyist? Be willing to cite your source materials. Don't have any - it's o.k. - as you did- to simply state "this is only my experience, but..."
Funny - I just wanted to know WHERE to find the information, And I get slapped for asking.
You ever play the old game at a party called "telephone"? Where a brief story is told via whispering from one person to the next, and repeated by one person to the next, and the next and so on? And by the time it gets to the last person - it is so far from the original story, that it only bears a slight resemblance to the first time it was told?
Anecdotal experience given as gospel is often of the same lineage. it is done with good intention, but it can lack on facts simply because there are so many vaiables from system to system, and how one measures results vs anothers yardsticks.
So- when I really want to know something, I try to find the source materials, and THEN discuss experiences. I apologize if this flies in the face of the internet community.
But, I do not keep fish or corals on the internet. I keep them in aquariums. And I do a lot of real research as a part of my work. So it is not my intention - again - to offend anyone by asking where to find the information that they are espousing as fact.
Unreasonable? I don't think so.
So how about this- If I ask a question.. It is a question. Not questioning your pride. ego, sense of accomplishment, or husbandry technique. It is a question in search of as much evidence, and fact I can find.
So, if that offends you - please - just ignore my questions.
If you have concerns with what or how I am asking - PM me. I really do not want to waste more time or bandwidth beating this "dead sea-horse"...Pun intended <G>
T
 
Elysia:
Thanks for your cordial response. I have kept the following pipefish for approx. 4 years, in a reef tank, with quite few fish. Maybe they are particularly hardy, I have not real experience with other pipefish
http://filaman.ifm-geomar.de/Photos/PicturesSummary.php?ID=5972&what=species
And you are right about almost discarding them with algae harvests!
Again, thank you for the explanation re: not cross posting from other forums. Not that I understand it - but at least now I know! hope it is o.k. that I posted the pic from a fish identifier on line
T
 
Clearly I came off wrong. I was trying hard to answer the question about why temperature is relevant to seahorses, and why temperature needs to be kept below 74 degrees. I thought that I did a good job of that...

My computer is broken, I am using someone elses. All of my files are on the other computer. I could look up a bunch of different articles and post them, but it seemed to me, that that would be a time consuming effort, and I didn't know if you were requesting the articles to actually read them, or to see if I have proof...

At this point, I'm not even sure what your question is, but I'll answer it if I can. I just need clarification on what info you want...

I am not an expert at all, just a cranky hobbyist with a broken computer who thought she did a decent job of answering a question about the reason behind the 74* recommendation and is not sure what else to say at this point...

I did suggest Working Notes. It can be found here http://www.cafepress.com/seahorses/1388296 I've also found it on Amazon.com before when doing a search for seahorses and a search for the title "Working Notes".

I also suggest a paid membership to seahorse.org that will allow you access to the pathology forum. Lots and lots of seahorse necropsies in there. If you have access to an articles library (online or otherwise), you can look into seahorse disease articles and also into articles on temperature effects on vibrio sp. bacteria. Those are the same searches that I'd be running without access to my computer. Also, the sad of it is, some of it is passed on information from other people, and information gleaned from sources that are not public and therefore cannot be posted on a forum (not because of being secretive, just because I could post all I wanted and you wouldn't be able to access it), so I've tried to put the information into my own words...

I didn't say I wouldn't answer on a hobbyist site because I felt above it. I was trying to explain why I answer with an explanation instead of a list of references. IME, references don't do most hobbyists any good...
 
Ann:
Thank You. I now understand better your response to me . My symphathies re:computers, have plenty of frustration there!
I will start with ordering the book - thanks for the link, and look into the seahorse.org website.
I suppose that I must approach this issue differently than most who are familiar with Reef Central. And perhaps - what each of us do for a living may influence the "how" in how we learn.
When you generalize about refences via the statement "IME, references don't do most hobbyists any good..." please understand that there is no such thing as "most hobbyists". As I am sure you are aware the range of experience on this board is from 1 day to perhaps 50 years. And among that spread, the entire gamut of capability (different from experience) .
So, I do understand the presumptive position - I just do not fit the profile of "most hobbyists".
Again - my apologies for ruffling any feathers among all who have viewed this thread.
Seahorses are not something I have any quantifiable experience in keeping. My focus in the past has been in fish and coral propagation.
 
We can't really generalize to all pipefish, but I can say:

*Flagfin pipefish (i.e. bluestripe, banded, multibanded, janss) *seem* to be more tolerant than seahorses to slightly higher temperatures. I would still not keep them any higher than 78 degrees, and would expect a better success rate below 74 degrees.

*Flagfin pipefish can also be kept with a higher diversity of corals.

They will clear your refugium of pods quickly, and will need to be fed supplementally. They will completely defeat the purpose of the refugium, just like seahorses, by eating all of the pods, and by counteracting any nutrient export benefits with their own waste.

Pipefish tend to be more difficult to get onto frozen foods than seahorses are, though, and if you cannot train it to frozen foods, you will have to supply it live foods.
 
teesquare -- I went to the link that you posted. Do you really keep the species whose photo comes up first? (I think they are all suppose to be Doryrhamphus dactyliophorus {banded}, but the first one looks like D. pessuliferus {yellowbanded} to me.) I have heard that D. pessuliferus is more difficult to take care of.
 
amstar,

I have kept D. pessuliferus for over a year in my refugium (90gal) and they spawned many times. I never managed to raise young. I am now doing the unheard of, keeping a pair of H. reidi in the refugium. Yes, they love the pods, baby amboinensis, etc., but there are enough of them.

As to disease problems with temperature, I cannot tell you from experience, as I've not lost any as of yet. I concur, that cooler temps are better for most of this fish group, but I am the opinion that there are more factors involved. Temp is just one, that may well be key.

My refugium has a DSB, lots of rock, Caulerpa, various red macros and turtle grass. My filtration is via Zeovit, skimmer, etc. General reef temp is 78°F
 
do you have a pic of your refigium?

I do not care if they eat the pods etc in the refigium, because it is mainly for filtration and nutrient export (mangroves and macro algae)

I will have a true refigium that is gravity fed back down into the main tank.
 
I have a 55 gallon "reef type" tank with a 37 gallon tank plumbed in line with seahorses and tons of macroalgae. I keep my temp at 68 degrees with a chiller. I can tell you that ever since I got the seahorses, my hair algae has exploded. I believe it's partly due to the extra feedings of mysis shrimp. One pair of full grown seahorses can eat up to two cubes of mysis per day!

I also have two blue stripe pipefish in this system. They eat frozen cyclops and live copepods. I think they would be a better choice for a refugium because they are smaller and could probably handle higher temps better.

I'd highly recommend quarantining them in a bare bottom tank for a couple months and training them to eat frozen food there. It will be next to impossible to train them to eat frozen once they are in the fuge with all the pods.

I don't have many corals left because of the hair algae, but I do have a lot of copepods hiding in my hair algae.
 
Molly my wise friend, sugar is the answer that you seek. Remove the nutrients and the hair algae will go. The HA dies off before the macro IME (although somewhat limited as I have only ever done this on my system).
 
You sound like quite the jerk.

5 mins of searching will tell you a million times that high temps can and will kill seahorses.

Benthic, what a heavy discussion over absolutly nothing, demersal may have been better, but when one uses big words on hobbiest sites, it gets lost, benthic is the used word on all hobbiest sites as far as I can see.

Get off your fuked up high horse.





<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14074047#post14074047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by teesquare
Rayjay:
Thank you for at least a more informative, and well detailed experience which is relevant to my questions.
Do you know the publisher of the book mentioned above ( "Working Notes", or the publisher - or author? Can't find anything on it yet)
And as for the FWIW - frankly., it must be beneath Ann to respond to poignant questions on "a hobbyist site" those are her words in her last post....funny I see no credentials listed....But she does apparently like me to feel she is an "expert"... Those do not exist in this hobby folks. No one is above the humbling experience of their own defeats and failures. Want to be considered a helpful hobbyist? Be willing to cite your source materials. Don't have any - it's o.k. - as you did- to simply state "this is only my experience, but..."
Funny - I just wanted to know WHERE to find the information, And I get slapped for asking.
You ever play the old game at a party called "telephone"? Where a brief story is told via whispering from one person to the next, and repeated by one person to the next, and the next and so on? And by the time it gets to the last person - it is so far from the original story, that it only bears a slight resemblance to the first time it was told?
Anecdotal experience given as gospel is often of the same lineage. it is done with good intention, but it can lack on facts simply because there are so many vaiables from system to system, and how one measures results vs anothers yardsticks.
So- when I really want to know something, I try to find the source materials, and THEN discuss experiences. I apologize if this flies in the face of the internet community.
But, I do not keep fish or corals on the internet. I keep them in aquariums. And I do a lot of real research as a part of my work. So it is not my intention - again - to offend anyone by asking where to find the information that they are espousing as fact.
Unreasonable? I don't think so.
So how about this- If I ask a question.. It is a question. Not questioning your pride. ego, sense of accomplishment, or husbandry technique. It is a question in search of as much evidence, and fact I can find.
So, if that offends you - please - just ignore my questions.
If you have concerns with what or how I am asking - PM me. I really do not want to waste more time or bandwidth beating this "dead sea-horse"...Pun intended <G>
T
Click to expand...
 
You sound like quite the jerk.

5 mins of searching will tell you a million times that high temps can and will kill seahorses.

Benthic, what a heavy discussion over absolutly nothing, demersal may have been better, but when one uses big words on hobbiest sites, it gets lost, benthic is the used word on all hobbiest sites as far as I can see.

Get off your fuked up high horse.





<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14074047#post14074047 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by teesquare
Rayjay:
Thank you for at least a more informative, and well detailed experience which is relevant to my questions.
Do you know the publisher of the book mentioned above ( "Working Notes", or the publisher - or author? Can't find anything on it yet)
And as for the FWIW - frankly., it must be beneath Ann to respond to poignant questions on "a hobbyist site" those are her words in her last post....funny I see no credentials listed....But she does apparently like me to feel she is an "expert"... Those do not exist in this hobby folks. No one is above the humbling experience of their own defeats and failures. Want to be considered a helpful hobbyist? Be willing to cite your source materials. Don't have any - it's o.k. - as you did- to simply state "this is only my experience, but..."
Funny - I just wanted to know WHERE to find the information, And I get slapped for asking.
You ever play the old game at a party called "telephone"? Where a brief story is told via whispering from one person to the next, and repeated by one person to the next, and the next and so on? And by the time it gets to the last person - it is so far from the original story, that it only bears a slight resemblance to the first time it was told?
Anecdotal experience given as gospel is often of the same lineage. it is done with good intention, but it can lack on facts simply because there are so many vaiables from system to system, and how one measures results vs anothers yardsticks.
So- when I really want to know something, I try to find the source materials, and THEN discuss experiences. I apologize if this flies in the face of the internet community.
But, I do not keep fish or corals on the internet. I keep them in aquariums. And I do a lot of real research as a part of my work. So it is not my intention - again - to offend anyone by asking where to find the information that they are espousing as fact.
Unreasonable? I don't think so.
So how about this- If I ask a question.. It is a question. Not questioning your pride. ego, sense of accomplishment, or husbandry technique. It is a question in search of as much evidence, and fact I can find.
So, if that offends you - please - just ignore my questions.
If you have concerns with what or how I am asking - PM me. I really do not want to waste more time or bandwidth beating this "dead sea-horse"...Pun intended <G>
T
Click to expand...
 
David is a really sweet guy that I really really look up to. He knows more about seahorses than just about anyone. But he is super passionate about them and tends to use some curse words in real life that sometimes leak out onto fish forums...but he did say what most of us reading this thread probably were thinking to ourselves.

The temperature thing is really frustrating for us seahorse people. So many people want to argue about it because they simply don't want it to be true. This ends up badly for their seahorses. It's really disheartening. I do agree with Ann about certain "reef type" pipefish being tolerant up to 78*F.

And David's right about the word "benthic." For some strange reason, in the seahorse community, this word has come to mean hitching or sticking to surfaces. Most of the ways we use it has nothing to do with substrate or sediments. Silly, I know.

Anyway, I'd be happy to post up or send you some pics, amstar. Did you want pics of my horrible hair algae, or my whole ugly setup with the 37 gallon plumbed into the 55 gallon? I am warning you, it's ugly. There are wires and tubes going everywhere. And salt creep. I'll look for some and PM them to you so I don't hijack this thread.

My new skimmer is really doing its job, and I can definitely tell that my hair algae is growing slower. So, that's a good sign!

Edit: one more thing: I agree that "IME, references don't do most hobbyists any good..." Because, most scientific research is done on these animals in the wild. This isn't much help to hobbyists who keep the animals in a glass box in their kitchen or living room. PARTICULARLY when it comes to seahorses who live in waters off the coast of Florida reaching 90*F. This simply can't be done long term (or short term IMO) in captivity. So regardless of what KIND of hobbyist you are, that kind of research isn't going to help you, or prove that seahorses can be kept at higher temperatures.
 
Last edited:
Im in the process of putting together a 30 gallon tank 24 wide 12 front to back and 24 high Just for sea horses.
Of course I plan on having a chiller on this tank to keep temps around 74 to 76 max.
It has a 10 gallon fuge for live sand and I will stock it with pods.
Years ago I had a 125 gallon reef and a 135 gallon reef both had several different sea horses I had a couple fatalities but all in all they did well.
My temps were never over 76 thou thanks to chillers.
They love to hang out on Gorgorains not sure I spelled that right.
This time around thou after reading more about them I think a seperate tank is the key.
Some fish do pick on sea horses also they have a hard time fighting for food in a community tank.
 
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