Please Critique my latest 215 design

Wow, where to begin. Seems I have been away too long..lol.

First, DONT USE PENDUCTORS. They are seen as a beneficial way to get 3-5x the flow from a nozzle, but this means a pressure rated pump (more watts), and more back-pressure. Taking this deduction simply doesnt return what you put in. When you look at the watts per gph standpoint, the low-pressure, low-wattage, high-flow method wins every time. Penductors and flow eductors are a waste. I can do the math if someone disagrees, but take my word for it, the Dart is a much better option. I have had people challenge me on it and after I do the calculations...its obvious...eductors are a waste of energy.

As for elbows, many pump mfg's suggest using one size larger than the pump's outlet. So a 1" outlet should have 1.25-1.5" piping, etc. If you run the head-loss calculator with this 'oversized' piping, the elbows result in minimal restriction and head loss. 90's arent as big a deal if you do this.

BTW, head-loss from restrictive piping is not due to friction or turbulence, etc...Its a simple conservation of energy principle (Bernoulli elaborates on this in his work, but the principle is based off his relationship with Newton). The basic idea is that as velocity increases, pressure decreases. Just thought it might benefit some of you down the road.

Oh, and for the closed loop, I would still move the intakes up to the top 6" of the tank. This will make for much easier cleaning of the intakes. In fact, I have an important consideration for you...depending on this...are you planning on using a canopy or open top?
 
14364Top_view-Model.jpg

Here is the preliminary top view.
I am planning on using 1/2 " lockline and directional nozzles coming off the T's. Talk about hard to calculate loss.
Come on Chem E what can I expect out of this?
 
Not much loss...there are so many outlets that the overall diameter of all those bends and outlets that the back-pressure and head-loss will be minimal. You might consider plumbing your CL over the side and eliminating the intake/outlets on the back wall. The top manifold will allow for just as much flow coverage (just add a few more outlets to the manifold along the back), and the intake can simply be run over the back wall (dual 1.5" intakes). This will also give the back panel back alot if its integrity...those three bulkheads weaken the back panel alot because they are right in the middle of the panel which is its highest stress point. This means much thicker glass at least. Also, you might consider splitting the manifold into two...and using a valve like an oceans motions to switch between the two for some wave action, as well as increased flow at any given time because each side will be getting the full amount once intended for the whole manifold. I suppose you answered my last question...you must be using a canopy/hood. In that case...plumbing it all from above/over the back would be better.
 
Hahn,
Did you see the rough draft of the front view?
I want you to look closer at the rear, front and top views.
Run through the thread for me.
Thanks.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6987609#post6987609 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REEFKEEPA
Wow Chem E.
That chart is a mind blower.
Does that apply to all EM pumps?

The shape of the power curve is very typical of all pumps (EM or otherwise). The flow curve varies wildly from pump to pump. In short, no. Unfortunately, few manufacturers put out flow/energy curves.

One of my favorite pumps is this bad boy; the Blueline NS-800. Look what 40 watts can get you! Talk about Energy Star Reefing!

blpumpcurve.gif


This is less than the Dart but remember it is sucking down about 140 watts, this is only drawing 40! A few of these on seperate closed loops would put out some monster flow.
 
I guess I just gravitate towards this kind of information. It does all come from reefing websites or vendor websites, so nothing crazy or engineeringesque.

On a side note, I see you suffer from insomnia too.
 
the oceansmotions are at oceansmotions.com

I have reviewed the top/front view diagrams and my comments stay the same. I would move the intake (and double it) towards the upper corners of the tank, if not just run it over the back wall to eliminate drilling. Then, for the returns, if you are going to have a top-of-tank manifold, you might as well eliminate the two returns coming through the back wall, and simply add a few more returns on the back half of the top-of-tank manifold. And, split the manifold into two...perhaps a left and right loop, or front and back...(or maybe even split it into 4...left/right...front/back) and run it with an oceans motions 4-way unit.

Oh, and what size sea-swirl do you have already?

Ill mull this over today as Im out & about...later on Ill post a diagram of what I would do...we can go from there.
 
1. Why does the power drop off after 8' is it the motor or the impeller?
2. It seems like it would have to be the motor, is it what they call an inductive motor?
3. Does the motor slow down with load?

I canââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t seem to find the dart model in stock. Champion doesnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have them even listed anymore.
 
Last edited:
hahnmeister

Ok, Ill bite. i want to learn as much as i can about these pumps and penductors as possable. :)

BARRACUDA Pump 4500 gph average amp 2.5 18' max head.

At 6' of back pressure it produces 3500 gph it will use 325watts.

That can drive at least 7 penductor right? Each penductor using 350gph to drive it. Then it multiplying flow buy say 3 times (that is very conservative form what i've seen).

Or 2 Darts pumps at 2 feet of head = 3200gph ea 150watts ea


1 BARRACUDA Pump 7 pendtuctors
1050 x 7= 7350gph divided by 325 watts = 22.62 gallons per watt

2 Darts pumps
3200 x 2 = 6400 gph. divided by 300 watts = 21.33 gallon per watt

(I leaned this in favor of the dart pumps and still came up the best case almost even, I could probable add a few more penductors) So what did I miss?

Roland
 
Last edited:
You really think that the back-pressure with a penductor/eductor is only 6'? I wouldnt bet on it. There is no way to have the RC calculator do it, but the actual nozzle on them is something like 3/8" for a 1" eductor. Now, looking at the RC calculator, you cant make any exact calculations, but if you look at the 'trends' with pipe diameter, in higher pipe-diameter ranges, and consider how much back-pressure going with an outlet that is only 3/8" compared to 1.5" pipe... That head pressure calc of 6' is waaaay to generous. Most eductors require about 10 PSI just to get going!

We would have to compare exact pumps. The last one I did was a Dart vs. some 150-180 watt high-head Iwaki-type with dual penductors. The argument came when a guy suggested that his iwaki-type was making just under 1200gph at 20' head. This guy was claiming flow rates of that 1200gph x 3 for the penductors and getting 3300gph for 180watts. Lol ...when of course, that rating was more like 700gphx3, or 2100gph w/ eductors and thats being generous. Keep in mind that a 3/8" nozzle is about 15% of the cross sectional area of a 1" pipe. Thats a butt-load of back-pressure on the pump. And the more of that back-pressure you relieve by adding more eductors, the less pressure you get...and that 3x or 5x multiple for the eductor drops to 2x or less.

Someone should add eductors to the RC flow calculator (and # of eductors) so people can really compare.

Compare all these estimates to even a Dart...3600gph for 140ish watts. The low-pressure pumps always win. And the Dart is just an american example. Many overseas makers have known this for a while. If you look at Red Dragon pumps, Deltec digital, or Tunze recirculation pumps...the scale is tilted even more in favor of flow pumps.

The same idea applies to skimmers. Needlewheels dont rely on making a pressure point to educt air like becketts, spray injection, downdraft, mazzei, or any other methods based on the venturi principle do. This allows needlewheels to mix just as much air/water as a beckett but for 1/2 the electricity (often 1/4 or less). Any method that relies on the generation of pressure to induce flow wastes energy.

Pressure shouldnt be too low of course. I have a friend with a AGA 210, and runs it with dual hammerhead pumps (thats over 5000gph each), one on the sump, one on a closed loop. Now, thats something like 8000gph after head-pressure, but he has it split up into 20 different outlets. That 8000 gph just got turned into a spraybar with 20 outlets because each nozzle only does about 400 gph which doesnt go very far!

For this tank, you might want to consider the downside of splitting up your outlets so much to cover every corner of the tank. Often this can diminish the flow to a point where leaving the closed loop with only 1 or 2 outlets would create enough of a 'wash' that would hit all the corners of the tank with the flow. My cousin can place his single TUNZE stream in his 180 so that it sends flow across the whole tank, and then that 3000+gph displaces all that water over there so that water flows behind the rocks and everything creating more of a surge than if he had individual nozzles behind the rockwork to eliminate dead zones. Heck, half the time with so many nozzles, you get enough of them facing each other so that they cancel each other out and the net result is dismal flow...even with 8000gph running!
 
No doubt Chem E I will save a ton of money.
I have a bunch of spare MJ stuff laying around the shed
Including impellers. So if I mess one up I can do it again.
Thanks.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6992646#post6992646 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REEFKEEPA
Would it work with a 1200 and bigger props?

Oh, no doubt! The MJ1200 will turn a 1.75" Dumas prop which produces absolutely insane flow. I tried it in my 55, and the flow blew 4' across the back of the tank, bounced off the right side of the tank, blew back 1.5' across the front of the tank, and chucked a softball-sized pipe organ coral about a foot before I could get to the off switch (which was right next to me). The thing was still getting up to equilibrium! There is no telling how it would have been in my 55 when it established the flow it is capable of!
 
Back
Top