Please Critique my latest 215 design

"Hahn- I am confused. You say a needlewheel doesnt use pressure, if so how does it draw in the air?" - aurorafish

It uses suction, having air and water both pulled into the intake of the pump and mixed mechanically with the needlewheel.
 
Hahn

Ive found penductors only need 6 psi NP (nozzle pressure) to run good, getting about 3 xs. 7 psi NP they run very good 4- 5xs. I no they say 10 psi. But at 7 psi they rocked. Less than 5 psi donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t bother.

I really just want to say is that they are a very good option for a lot of tanks, especially tanks with plumbing size constraints like standard reef ready aquariums and for people concerned about the looks of 1 1/2 plumbing.... ive installed a few of them on existing tanks in the past 3 weeks and they work amazingly. I no I can get 6 or 7 on that barracuda pump keeping the pressure above 13' of head. That is at least 7000 GPM that same pump without penductor 4500 GPM.

Im sure your right about the Red Dragon pumps, Deltec digital, or Tunze recirculation pumps being more efficient, I have never even seen one of those. All im saying they have very good applications and in most cases should be considered.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6991434#post6991434 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
You really think that the back-pressure with a penductor/eductor is only 6'?

I have time now so I will try to get the numbers right from that earlier post.
(6ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ is what should have been subtracted from 18' max head for flow out of the seven .3" nozzles. so I meant 12'). The nozzle dia is .3". They say they consume 300gpm at 10 psi. So I assume 280gpm at 7 psi and 260 for 5 psi. So the math can be done and a informed choice can be made.

Example; i hooked 1 little giant MD 3 pump with about 5 feet of head, to 1 penductor. It pushed water across the 8' long 240 gallon tank and you could see the water movement in the far corner, it was impressive. that was about 6 psi.

Roland
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6994885#post6994885 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
"Hahn- I am confused. You say a needlewheel doesnt use pressure, if so how does it draw in the air?" - aurorafish

It uses suction, having air and water both pulled into the intake of the pump and mixed mechanically with the needlewheel.

The needlewheel thing was a bad example, but I think i no what Hahn was saying.

Needle wheels pumps do require pressure deferential like all pumps in order to move water. The water movement causes a low pressure to draw in air, just like all skimmers. (Except air pump/stone types). It just dose it with better energy efficiency.

Roland

oceansmotions.com ; they looks great Thanks Hahn
Thanks ChemE on the links.
 
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I'll try it out.
I will need to use 2" PVC so they will be a bit bulky,
But I should still save a ton of mony.
After reading most of the thread on the mod , I was wondering If I could shorten the length of the Mod without reducing performance. Another thing that I didn't see in there is how he glued the acrylic to the PVC.
 
Hey Reefkeepa,

I've made about a half dozen of these so far (mad scientists can't help themselves) and they are pretty darn amazing. The acrylic is glued in place with the thick CA glue. We've all pretty much agreed that the mod can be shortened quite a bit. My latest shroud is only 5 cm long and I think I can shorten that a few more cm without decreasing performance.

Hope this helps.
 
yourfishman,
I agree that not every tank can easily have 1.5" plumbing used, but two or three 1" outlets equal one 1.5" pipe...so if large piping is an issue...splitting the outputs up solves that problem. Your exaqmple is a good one, as the larger a pumps gets, the better it is able to deal with the back-pressure created by an eductor.

You said that the eductors have given you good results with less than the suggested minimum of 10psi (I believe 10psi for penductors...thats why they are only 3x, and regular eductors are 5x but the suggested minimum is 12psi). I just want to point out (not for you, but for others reading this) that that means that that multiple that the eductor is able to enhance the flow by drops as well. The lower the pressure, the lower the venturi effect on the output and the less flow the eductor is able to make.

I just havent found a situation where an eductor would be considered an advantage. The wattage that they consume in the form of back-pressure just isnt made up for in the flow that they return. If the noxxle diameter is only 3/8" diameter, or .3" like you said, it would take 6 of them to come close to the same cross-sectional area as a 1" pipe, let alone a 1.5". But adding these extra outlets lowers the total pressure of the system and screws things up even more by splitting up the flow, and therefore the pressure.

Until someone changes pump technology in a big way, the low-wattage/high-flow pumps will be the best option.

And although your example is impressive, we should be sure not to confuse flow volume with velocity. Even though in the case you have shown gives an outlet with enough velocity to reach across the tank in a beam...volume is better.

That is another reason why I prefer low-head/high-flow pumps. Their relative gentle output results in a larger, although gentler water motion. Much like the difference between a Maxi-Jet and a SEIO. Sure, the MJ can project a beam of water farther, but the SEIO moves more water (comparing a MJ1200 to a SEIO 620 for instance, also note that the SEIO uses 1/3 the energy).

I dont want to get into an argument with you though. I can understand the attraction of an eductor, and was once in favor of them. Our methods may vary due to personal reasons as much as why some prefer BB or DSB.

As for the needlewheel...its a perfect example. See, a venturi skimmer (becketts, injectors, etc all operate on the same idea) uses a higher pressure pump to accelerate water in a narrow diameter section. Due to conservation of energy laws, the increase in speed results in a relative drop in pressure...sucking in air at this point. The problem is that the acceleration of the water is produced in exchange for the back-pressure that decreases the pump's capacity. A needlewheel, or reverse venturi, does not rely on back-pressure to create suction (kinda like taking two steps forward, one step back), it simply relies on the suction of the pump intake to introduce air (more like one step forward, and then another). Any time you use the creation of back-pressure for either eduction or induction, you have a net loss of flow and pressure as a result. With a needlewheel, you may still have a net loss, but its a small one because its a more direct method of introducing air as you never develop a head-pressure at all on the pump. This is why you dont see many Euro-made beckett skimmers. They simply eat too much electricity compared to a needlewheel.

yourfishman, glad to help you out with the OM site. I would have though for sure you would have seen it by now. Its a great product, with many happy customers here at RC and worldwide. As a note, Paul the owner consulted myself and a few others on hydrodynamics when a few of the users were wondering about using the OM units with eductors. I suggested that Paul not warranty/suggest the units with eductor use and gave my reasons on his website. Paul has stuck with this so far. The only exception would be if Paul changed his drum design in the future. The constant rise and drop in line pressure as the unit switches from port to port causes a cyclic wear & tear, and although there is no pre-defined tolerance for this figure...cyclic variations in pressure are the #1 reason for failure with any motor.
 
Hahn,

Your example was good, but did not have to be perfect when you end it with, "Any method that relies on the generation of pressure to induce flow wastes energy". That dose say it a lot right their.

I think the most amazing thing about the penductor is how well it turns that high velocity stream into a gentle flow. The penductor flow pattern seems very similar to my Lutz maxi stream mod pumps, maybe with a little more velocity. Their appears to be different size I only tested the short .3 models. Maybe you should try this model. My numbers on multiplication of the flow are fairly accurate. Here is a link, their multiplication are more generous than mine. Id rather sale a pump than a penductor it more money for me, but I try to save people money were I can, so i recomend them for consideration. That maybe partially why I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have a store any more.

http://www.kthsales.com/website/vendors/Eductors/mixing_eductors.htm

A lot of this equipment is new to me, penductors, BK skimmers, OMââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦. It kind of cool, take a 3 year break and it like Christmas all over again. It gives you a fresh look at the hobby and the industry.

I surely enjoy hearing your input even if we donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t always agree, you have always helped me to think a little more about a given subject, thanks.

Hahn, You seem to have a lot of knowledge and influence. Do you think you can look at that flow calculator, add tees and double check the 45s and 90s formulas theirs seems to me to be an error with their numbers? It show 2 45s restricts more than a 90???

Roland
 
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The mods know about that. The flow calculator has many flaws to it since hydrodynamics is not an easy thing for even a computer to calculate w/o some engineer looking over its process. To eliminate the loss of any elbow, T, or bend, using a larger diameter pipe seems to work very well.

I have seen the kthsales specs and that page. I happen to have a 3/4" and 1" eductor. 12psi seems like a huge waste of energy to me. I wish that the RC calculator could have an added spec in the flow loss calculator for nozzle diameter.
 
Chem E ,
I would like to shorten the length for sure.
Think about this.
I will have a 215 gallon tank that is 6' long
and 2' wide. For good flow how many of what Mods would you recommend?
 
Reefkeepa,

I'm going to slightly disagree with hahnmeister and recommend 3 MJ900's running the 1.75" Dumas prop on a wave timer that runs 2 at a time. And ixnay the CL. That will bring you up to 25.5 watts for your main circulation which is pretty incredible. That should also put you somewhere around 9000 gph of water circulation believe it or not!

Make a MJ900 w/ a 1.75" Dumas prop, pop it in your 54 and plug it in; you'll be a convert for sure! That prop is absolutely insane! 3 would be plenty for the tank you're planning.
 
That is up to you Keepa. Both systems have their advantages.

CL:
-minimal equipment visible in tank
-no power cords in tank
-can be placed to reach harder areas (like behind the front walls, etc.)

In tank powerheads:
-Lower power requirements by a wide margin. Thousands upon thousands of GPH for under 100watts, heck, under 50 usually due to lack of back pressure/plumbing restrictions. My cousin does his 180 with nothing but two Tunze 6200s and an eheim 1250 on the sump return. Thats about 75watts at any given time and up to 10,000gph+ of flow.
-the pumps can be moved as the reef changes, a CL is fixed in place
-opposite of a CL, that means that there is no equipment to hide behind or underneath the tank that could be a problem on the outside to cover.


I prefer in tank powerheads myself. With some proper planning and the right tank dimensions, they can be hidden very easily inside aragacrete rocks or in areas where they are less noticed. Some tanks this is harder to do with, and then a closed loop is a better idea. Besides making aragacrete rocks to enclose powerheads, I have also made black acrylic boxes to hide powerheads in. Much like a Tunze wavebox, these boxes are often 6"x6" and as tall as the tank, and have slots routed in on all sides at all heights. Then I put powerheads inside of them facing in the desired directions. This way, the powerheads are secure, and less noticable (they look like an overflow box). The same idea could be applied to a aragacrete rock however.

For your 215...a couple stream style pumps hidden in some rockwork might be just the thing...
 
Make sure you leave a few inches at the top! It is that nuts! And make sure you use the Dumas prop, it is the most agressively pitched 1.75" prop the MJ's will turn thus they give you the most flow.
 
ChemE, maybe you are right. MJ900s are about 1/3 the wattage of 1200s. I was thinking that the octuras might need the extra torque...but with dumas props... I suppose its a tradeoff. I was thinking MJ1200s are only 24watts as is...but you are right...the MJ900 is a better watts/gph performer...it might mean a need for another pump or two though.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7009063#post7009063 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by REEFKEEPA
And what pump would you suggest for my overflow?

Honestly, shoot for 300 gph, so you could very easily use something smaller like the Blueline NS-800 which only draws 40 watts max and should give you around 700 gph @ 4' of head.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7009083#post7009083 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by hahnmeister
ChemE, maybe you are right. MJ900s are about 1/3 the wattage of 1200s. I was thinking that the octuras might need the extra torque...but with dumas props... I suppose its a tradeoff. I was thinking MJ1200s are only 24watts as is...but you are right...the MJ900 is a better watts/gph performer...it might mean a need for another pump or two though.

Yeah, the 1200's really stink as far as efficiency go. The 900 and 1200 both seem to be able to turn the 1.75" Dumas and put out about 300 gph. The Dumas is more aggressively pitched that the octura's that D got to run on the MJ's so it is king as far as flow goes.
 
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