Please help me with my ill tinker's butterflyfish

[Tanu]

Dear all, I hope you can help me curing my fish.

My tinker's butterfly is ill. I bought it 6 months ago and it has done very well the first 6 months. Since it stopped eating last week I decided I should treat for Cryptocarion. I set up a small hospital tank using water from the aquarium and I started treating with a mild dose of malachite green, methylene blue and formalin (commercially available fish medicine here sold under the brand name Femsee), I stuck to these for 2 days. Yesterday I switched to copper and Furaltadone (broad-spectrum antibiotic, nitrofuran derative). I choose the copper because of what I have read both on websites such as these and based on the book by G. Bassleer about fish diseases. The Furaltadone was used because my LFS advised me to do so as he felt there might be secondary infections. This LFS mostly knows what they are talking about. I have a Salifert copper test kit and as I read I should gradually increase the level of the copper I started with about 0,15 mg/l.

I check nitrites and ammonium daily, so far both are undetectable. Daily I replace 50% of the water with water from the reef aquarium, I top up removed medication.

The fish still does not eat. Of course, the main goal is to get the fish completely healthy again, but I feel I should get it to eating as well. Of course, the fish probably does not eat because it is ill, but the fact it does not eat does not help its immune system.

So my main questions are:
- am I doing everything right?
- when could I expect the fish to eat again?

All suggestions are more than welcome.

I filled in the questionnaire from the stickies as well.

Thanks in advance, also on behalf of my fish



1. How old is this aquarium?
Set up in 2006. See the picture I have attached.

2. If less than six months old, what is ammonia level?
-

3. What is SG of this aquarium? How measured?
1.024, spindle

4. When was the last fish added to this aquarium?
August 2013, 5 small Anthias cooperi which all do very well.

5. Was it quarantined? If so, how? And how long? Was it prophylactically treated? How?
Kept in a separate perforated box in the tank for about 2 weeks. Prophylactically treated in a FW-bath with praziquantel for 25 minutes.

6. If you are using a copper based medication, which one? How often do you measure level? When?
See below.

7. If you are using hyposalinity, how did you calibrate your refractometer?
-

8. Please describe in detail, the appearance of the fish? If there is one or more pimples, are they lumpy? What color?
Fish looks ok, but an experienced keeper could see there was 'something' wrong when the fish was still in the display tank. It has had a few spots earlier, but nothing serious. The amount of spots seems to have increased a bit, but, even worse: the fish quit eating last week so it was moved to a hospital tank on Jan. 4th. I have attached two pictures of the fish, the one from the front shows the skin's condition best. That picture is not completely clear, but especially on the black areas of the fish, the spots are visible quite well.

9. Please describe the behavior of the fish as best you can. Is it acting reclusive? Is it always up towards the top of the aquarium? Is it avoiding light? How active is the fish?
When still in the display tank, the fish used to be very active and ate nearly anything from between my fingers. Last week the fish quit eating and I did not get it to eat, I tried lots of food without any luck. When the fish quit eating, it went to the cleaner goby and cleaner shrimp more often and was less often swimming in the visible area of the aquarium.

10. Is the fish eating? What?
No, see above. There are some live mysid shrimp, some bigger (but small enough for him) other shrimp and a clip of seaweed (which he used to like) but he does not touch anything.

 

[tylersarah]

I'm not the omniscient fish keeper in these parts, but I would like to say copper for ich seems to be the most obvious path, although the fish could have internal worms etc causing it not to eat. Copper suppresses appetite, if it were my fish, I wouldn't dose full strength- see Bob Fenner's wetwebmedia website, you can even email him for expert advice.

Also, I would try to entice the fish with the most delectable of foods 1. live blackworms 2. clams in the shell 3. other fresh seafoods

I wish you the best luck with your fish. It's an incredible species and your tank is outstanding.

 

[HumbleFish]

I'm not the omniscient fish keeper in these parts, but I would like to say copper for ich seems to be the most obvious path, although the fish could have internal worms etc causing it not to eat. Copper suppresses appetite, if it were my fish, I wouldn't dose full strength- see Bob Fenner's wetwebmedia website, you can even email him for expert advice.

Also, I would try to entice the fish with the most delectable of foods 1. live blackworms 2. clams in the shell 3. other fresh seafoods

I wish you the best luck with your fish. It's an incredible species and your tank is outstanding.

+1 0.35 is the minimum effective dosage if the OP is using Cupramine

 

[Tanu]

I'm not the omniscient fish keeper in these parts, but I would like to say copper for ich seems to be the most obvious path, although the fish could have internal worms etc causing it not to eat. Copper suppresses appetite, if it were my fish, I wouldn't dose full strength- see Bob Fenner's wetwebmedia website, you can even email him for expert advice.

Also, I would try to entice the fish with the most delectable of foods 1. live blackworms 2. clams in the shell 3. other fresh seafoods

I wish you the best luck with your fish. It's an incredible species and your tank is outstanding.

Thanks, I have just sent an email to Bob/his crew.... Indeed I should maybe consider the seafoods you mentioned.

+1 0.35 is the minimum effective dosage if the OP is using Cupramine

Thanks. I am using a mix of copper sulfate with citric acid as proposed in the book I mentioned (4,0 gr copper sulfate + 0,25 gr citric acid on 1 L of demineralised water). I assume the copper is available in the water in the 2+ form.

 

[Tanu]

I'm not the omniscient fish keeper in these parts, but I would like to say copper for ich seems to be the most obvious path, although the fish could have internal worms etc causing it not to eat. Copper suppresses appetite, if it were my fish, I wouldn't dose full strength- see Bob Fenner's wetwebmedia website, you can even email him for expert advice.

Also, I would try to entice the fish with the most delectable of foods 1. live blackworms 2. clams in the shell 3. other fresh seafoods

I wish you the best luck with your fish. It's an incredible species and your tank is outstanding.

Just back from the fish store (no, not the aquarium store ) and bought a few mussels. I have opened one and put it in the Tinker's tank to see what happens. I will store the left over mussels in the sump of the large tank for the time being...

 

[HumbleFish]

Just back from the fish store (no, not the aquarium store ) and bought a few mussels. I have opened one and put it in the Tinker's tank to see what happens. I will store the left over mussels in the sump of the large tank for the time being...

Live mussels or frozen? I would think frozen mussels would rot in your sump and contaminate the tank.

 

[Rea17]

Live mussels or frozen? I would think frozen mussels would rot in your sump and contaminate the tank.

+1

I get live mussels and clams from the grocery store for my fish, and I always freeze them prior to feeding. They are harvested locally and I'm sure the tropical environment in the tank would kill them anyway, so at least this way they don't pollute.

 

[Mrscribbled]

What is the water temp this fish is kept in. I have a tough time keeping my DT under 75 and that seems to play a huge part in keeping these fish happy long term.

 

[Tanu]

Live mussels or frozen? I would think frozen mussels would rot in your sump and contaminate the tank.

Live, of course... But so far nothing happened..

What is the water temp this fish is kept in. I have a tough time keeping my DT under 75 and that seems to play a huge part in keeping these fish happy long term.

I keep it at around 75-76... Should I try to lower it? Would be no problem... Didn't think of that one yet, thanks!

 

[Fishfirst]

This animal has a severe parasitic infection. More than likely it will begin to eat again once it reduces its parasite load. Continue with the copper treatment. I would also come to the realization that every one of your specimens has parasites and will most likely need to be quarantined and treated while your main tank goes fallow.

 

[Fishfirst]

Also the 50% wc from the main tank is starting the clock over every time

 

[Tanu]

Thanks Fishfirst, I see your point with the wc, I didn't think of it that way. I tried some live mysid and some vermited snails without their tube today (it used to go crazy for it) but no succes yet... I will keep you informed.

 

[tylersarah]

I have my fingers crossed

 

[Allmost]

sorry I cant offer much help, but what a beautiful tank ! hope he makes it and all goes well.

 

[Tanu]

I have my fingers crossed

Thanks

sorry I cant offer much help, but what a beautiful tank ! hope he makes it and all goes well.

Thanks

Caring for this fish is nearly as time consuming as caring for a sick human... So far, it still does not eat. I am in contact with a vet specialised in fish, he advised me to increase the temp as to speed up the metabolism of the fish. So far, the ick is nearly gone. Fish still does not eat, but it did poop today. I put the poop under the microscope (magnification: 90 x) and saw no worms: good news

Now if I only got it to eat...

 

[Fishfirst]

Wait, a vet recommended to increase the temp on a cool water fish? To me this does not make any sense, and in my opinion would discourage a fish to eat... do you get hungry when you are overheating?

 

[Mrscribbled]

Wait, a vet recommended to increase the temp on a cool water fish? To me this does not make any sense, and in my opinion would discourage a fish to eat... do you get hungry when you are overheating?

Fish are cold blooded and do not create heat units during digestion like warm blooded animals do, and warm blooded animals require more calorie intake in colder weather to stay warm. When fish are in cooler water their metabolism goes down, as does organ function. Raising the water temp will raise the metabolism on fish; But will also decrease oxygenation, and most likely benefit the parasites as in speeding up their lifecycle. However with this particular fish, the temp should be kept in the 68-75 degree range.

 

[Tanu]

Wait, a vet recommended to increase the temp on a cool water fish? To me this does not make any sense, and in my opinion would discourage a fish to eat... do you get hungry when you are overheating?

This advice surprised me as well, when I mentioned the fact that this fish prefers cooler water, he still insisted I should raise the temperature. I do understand what you mean, but as so far the fish still does not eat, I decided I should give it a try.

Fish are cold blooded and do not create heat units during digestion like warm blooded animals do, and warm blooded animals require more calorie intake in colder weather to stay warm. When fish are in cooler water their metabolism goes down, as does organ function. Raising the water temp will raise the metabolism on fish; But will also decrease oxygenation, and most likely benefit the parasites as in speeding up their lifecycle. However with this particular fish, the temp should be kept in the 68-75 degree range.

Hmmm... I fully agree with your explanation, but still doubt what to do... :hmm6:

 

[Fishfirst]

I am merely making the point that a fish that is comfortable is more likely to eat.
Here is the biological explanation as to why you do not want to increase temp on a fish that has not eaten for week and a half after fighting a severe parasitic infection.
A fish that is running out of reserves has more than likely used all fat reserves and now begins to use organ and muscle tissue for metabolic processes. The temperature increase also speeds up its metabolism, making the strain on organs and muscle more diare, all while making it more uncomfortable with temps that put more stress on the fish. Gills are damaged and prone to bacterial infection. Less oxygen is received to key organs due to this damage and now due to the lower O2 concentration in the water assuming agitation remained static. Less oxygen inhibits the fish from functioning and behaving normally. Thus it will continue down the road of no return. What you really need is more time for the animal to feel better, to heal and feel normal, and what the temp increase does is give you less time, more discomfort.

 

[tylersarah]

What did Fenner suggest?

Do you have access to live blackworms, when my butterflyfish is ill it's the only thing he'll still eat.