Plumbing advice

[tassod]

Hey everyone,

I'm getting ready to start putting together the plumbing for my new 125 gallon build and need some advice.

I have a perfecto 125 with 2 corner flows. Althought the tank was never used, I bought it used and these tanks usually come with plumbing kits for the overflows but this one did not so I had to put my own together. Can I get some input if these look ok? Wondering if the intake is too low on the durso pipe.

I want to use a slightly modified version of the BeanAnimal system. Got the idea from another reefer in my local forum. Basically, the left corner flow will have a durso style drain at 1.5" and a 1" return. The right side corner flow will have the same drain but at full siphon regulated by a gate valve and a backup drain. Here are the pics:

Right corner flow

Left corner flow

 

[uncleof6]

The other reefer is steering you in the wrong direction. Due to the interaction, between the siphon and the open channel--that makes this system work, the siphon and the open channel must be in the same body of water. E.G. in the same overflow. The dry emergency can be in the other overflow. However this will effectively reduce the system to a single overflow, as the second overflow will no longer function.

Modified bean systems, generally may or may not work properly. In this case, the system will not work properly with your proposed modification. To utilize both overflows, the overflows need to be bridged, so they are the same body of water.

 

[tassod]

The other reefer is steering you in the wrong direction. Due to the interaction, between the siphon and the open channel--that makes this system work, the siphon and the open channel must be in the same body of water. E.G. in the same overflow. The dry emergency can be in the other overflow. However this will effectively reduce the system to a single overflow, as the second overflow will no longer function.

Modified bean systems, generally may or may not work properly. In this case, the system will not work properly with your proposed modification. To utilize both overflows, the overflows need to be bridged, so they are the same body of water.

I wouldn't say he is steering me, i basically decided to mirror his plumbing design because I like how clean and simple it is. However, I don't want to do anything that will result in my system not working. Can you help me design something clean and simple that works well? I definitely want to use a manifold for ca, carbon and GFO reactors. My sump is a 40 gallon long tank with my return in the center and i'm using an external reeflo blowhole 1450 pump.

Should I basically go with 2 returns as the tank was designed for?

 

[uncleof6]

First you are going to have a rather hard time squeezing a 40 breeder (18" wide) under a 125, (18.5" wide) unless you do something unsafe with the stand size. Any chance you can do a buyers remorse thing and return the tank for a 120? No? shucks.... (you can do more with a 120.)

Getting a reef-not-ready tank to work well is never simple. We know that two 1.5" dursos will net you ~ 700 gph without issues. Your flow rate in this system should be up in the 1200 gph range. To get there you need a siphon system, but you don't need a 1.5" siphon. A 1" will do it, with around a 2' drop or more. Simplest would be to run a 1" siphon and 1.5" open channel in one overflow, and a 1" dry emergency in the other, along with a 1.25" return line. (on the 1.5" bulkhead; you would also want to run 1.25" pipe for the pump inlet as well, might not be necessary, but is better anyway.) This will shut down one of the overflows, so the question that would remain would be: will the single overflow handle 1200 gph. With teeth I doubt it.

Doing a Herbie would yield the same results, however you could try to use a dual herbie (siphon and dry emergency in each overflow--the siphon goes on the 1" bulkhead!) this would keep both overflows in operation, they might not flow equally, but they would work, the target being 600 gph per overflow. In this scheme, 1.25" return line (1.25" on the pump inlet) up over the back of the tank. Why 1.25" pipe? 1/4 the friction loss.

Incidentally, the widest sump you can fit under a standard 125 is 17", and have the tank properly supported. (using a plywood box stand with no lumber.)

 

[reefriot13]

He said his sump was a 40 long. Why not get a couple megaflow kits and be done with it. Fully adjustable and you'll still get your 1200gph

Sent from my MB611 using Tapatalk 2

 

[uncleof6]

Well I can't read so well sometimes.......

A couple of megaflow kits will not handle 1200 gph. They are nothing but Modified dursos. @ 1.5" you would be lucky to get 700 gph with two of them, without noise, bubbles, and instability. No matter what name they go by, what gimmicks they employ, you cannot beat the physics of air assisted standpipes.

 

[reefriot13]

That's odd the single megaflow with adjustable air valve on my 60g is hadling a mag 9.5 just fine and is dead silent. I must have gotten a fluke

Sent from my MB611 using Tapatalk 2

 

[tassod]

First you are going to have a rather hard time squeezing a 40 breeder (18" wide) under a 125, (18.5" wide) unless you do something unsafe with the stand size. Any chance you can do a buyers remorse thing and return the tank for a 120? No? shucks.... (you can do more with a 120.)

Getting a reef-not-ready tank to work well is never simple. We know that two 1.5" dursos will net you ~ 700 gph without issues. Your flow rate in this system should be up in the 1200 gph range. To get there you need a siphon system, but you don't need a 1.5" siphon. A 1" will do it, with around a 2' drop or more. Simplest would be to run a 1" siphon and 1.5" open channel in one overflow, and a 1" dry emergency in the other, along with a 1.25" return line. (on the 1.5" bulkhead; you would also want to run 1.25" pipe for the pump inlet as well, might not be necessary, but is better anyway.) This will shut down one of the overflows, so the question that would remain would be: will the single overflow handle 1200 gph. With teeth I doubt it.

Doing a Herbie would yield the same results, however you could try to use a dual herbie (siphon and dry emergency in each overflow--the siphon goes on the 1" bulkhead!) this would keep both overflows in operation, they might not flow equally, but they would work, the target being 600 gph per overflow. In this scheme, 1.25" return line (1.25" on the pump inlet) up over the back of the tank. Why 1.25" pipe? 1/4 the friction loss.

Incidentally, the widest sump you can fit under a standard 125 is 17", and have the tank properly supported. (using a plywood box stand with no lumber.)

The sump size is 48"L X 12.5"W X 17 high. Unfortunately i cannot return the tank because i got it from a private seller here on this forum. Also, the tank is reef ready with 2 corner flows as the pics show. So i have 2 one inch bulkheads in each corner. This was probably a bad move but I have already glued the standpipes to the bulkheads. 2 of them are 1.5" and the others are 1". Actually in those corners, you cannot fit anything else bigger with the 1.5" and there is simply no room in there. What can we do with what i have to work with? Here are some pics:

Right corner flow

Sump

 

[reefriot13]

I would use both the 1.5 drains the way they are and use the 1" lines for dual returns. Reeflo pumps are not pressure pumps so by the time you return 2 lines with the head hight you might be getting 1000gph wich the 2 drains will handle. I would add a tee just after the pump and return it to the sum.put a gate valve on it so you can dial in the exact flo you want. This way you can tap off the line to run reactors and such. Here a pic of my 60g overflow. Megaflow kit and 3/4" return split into 2 loc line

I'm running a mag 9.5 and the overflow is silent. There is nothing but a checkvalve inline on the pump.


Sent from my MB611 using Tapatalk 2

 

[tassod]

Here is the link to the build thread of the system I was planning on using as a reference or mirror. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2133241

Obviously the stand used in the build is taller than mine. The return pump i'm using has 3 different speed settings to control flow. I also like the idea of having a backup drain.

Reefriot13, so you're saying just use 2 durso style 1.5" drains with no full siphon and use dual returns instead of 1 return and 1 backup drain?

Please keep in mind i am new to the hobby and have never plumbed anything like this. Does anyone have a diagram i can use to reference? Also would i be using all 1" pipe under the tank?

 

[reefriot13]

I just like to keep crap simple if it works. The person I got my 60g from had it set up as a SPS tank and did 2 drains. He used the megaflow as the main and then turned the 3/4 return line into a back up drain. From my experiance 3/4 drain don't do much( I did this on a small nano I drilled and would only habdle about 400gph quietly. About 700gph but made a lot of gurgling. You can just do 1 return line and make one of the 1" into a saftey drain if your worried about it. I like 2 -3 returns with a big pump so I don't have 1 a sand storm or blasting the crap out of corals and 2 keep fewer wave pumps out of my display. I'm a bit old school on equipment and use seaswirls on my 150g return lines. I think the 2 returns should be just fine but a back up can't hurt. If you want to still do more than 1 return either plumb up the back of tank or tee off the 1 internal return and use loc line to disperes the flow where you want. The one thing I can't stress enough when plumbing in your system is use a check valve right after pump somewhere( can save you a big mess to clean up) and use as many unions as you can fit in there. Nothing worse than haveing to cut your 100 bucks in plumbing apart to remove a peice of equipment. I also stress using gate valves to control flow VS a ball valve. Much easier to adjust. BTW your back up drain should be a little higher than the other 2

Sent from my MB611 using Tapatalk 2

 

[uncleof6]

That's odd the single megaflow with adjustable air valve on my 60g is hadling a mag 9.5 just fine and is dead silent. I must have gotten a fluke

Sent from my MB611 using Tapatalk 2

There is nothing odd about it at all. The physics of air assisted stand pipes tell us exactly what is going to happen.

Air assisted stand pipes only work well, when the flow is laminar. (non turbulent) That is, water flowing along the walls of the pipe, with calm air in the middle. (air not in motion, no air being drawn in.) With a 1.5" air assisted stand pipe, that flow limitation is ~ 350 gph, perhaps a bit more. With a 1" air assisted stand pipe, that limitation is ~50 gph.

If the stand pipe is more than 1/4 full of water, the flow becomes turbulent. This turbulence causes the air and water to "mix." This condition causes air to be sucked into the stand pipe. The range of symptoms can be air locking (cycling/toilet flushing,) instability, discharge of bubbles, and noise.

The above is true of Dursos, Stockmans, MegaFlows, Glass-Holes, PVC overflows, and any other type of drain system that allows air into the line, either at the stand pipe, or anywhere along the drain line.

At the other end of the scale, often these drain systems are "tweaked" up to a point somewhere between turbulent flow, and a siphon. This makes for a very unstable system, requiring constant adjustment, and it is not safe. (This is done by REDUCING the amount of air in the stand pipe--less air equals more water; more air equals less water. Or restricting the line with a valve.

Usually, reports of "silent" air assisted stand pipes, include an over estimation of the flow rate. The reduced flow rate being due to friction loss, in the return plumbing. The Danner Mag Drives are an example of a rather peculiar pump. It is so called a "Positive Displacement Pump." However, a positive displacement pump, does not suffer a flow rate decrease with increasing static lift, friction or velocity head. The flow curve is a vertical line. The Mag drives show a marked decrease in output with increasing head loss, and handles friction loss very poorly--so it cannot be a positive displacement pump, or it is a poorly engineered one at best.

The bottom line with the Danner Mag Drive 9.5 and higher, is you have to use 1.5" outlet pipe, to get any flow out of it. Most people don't read the instructions, so they have no way to know that.

Also, the casual way in which these systems are put together, leaves the flow rate a huge question mark. I would not be surprised, if I put a flow meter in your return line, that is was not flowing more than 350 - 400 gph, which would make achieving a silent "megaflow" or other air assisted drain system, more of a reality. In any case, these stand pipes/drain systems are never truly silent, never quite stable. You cannot beat the physics.

 

[uncleof6]

Here is the link to the build thread of the system I was planning on using as a reference or mirror. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2133241

Obviously the stand used in the build is taller than mine. The return pump i'm using has 3 different speed settings to control flow. I also like the idea of having a backup drain.

Reefriot13, so you're saying just use 2 durso style 1.5" drains with no full siphon and use dual returns instead of 1 return and 1 backup drain?

Please keep in mind i am new to the hobby and have never plumbed anything like this. Does anyone have a diagram i can use to reference? Also would i be using all 1" pipe under the tank?

I understand being new to the hobby, I was new once also. (about 35 years ago )

We need to ask "will this work" type questions before we glue any pipe.
My recommendations remain unchanged. Physics governs how these systems operate, not opinion, or anecdote.

Adding: do not use a valve in the drain line, unless it is a siphon system, with an equal or higher capacity (same size or larger pipe) emergency back up. Valves in air assisted drain systems, simply make the problems worse. Flow rate is controlled with a valve at the pump outlet. Valves in the drain line have a different purpose.

Do not use check valves, to prevent a flood due to power out drain down. The failure probability is 100%: not if, but when. The when will be a time when you are not home, to intervene, and minimize the damage.

 

[tassod]

I understand being new to the hobby, I was new once also. (about 35 years ago )

We need to ask "will this work" type questions before we glue any pipe.
My recommendations remain unchanged. Physics governs how these systems operate, not opinion, or anecdote.

Adding: do not use a valve in the drain line, unless it is a siphon system, with an equal or higher capacity (same size or larger pipe) emergency back up. Valves in air assisted drain systems, simply make the problems worse. Flow rate is controlled with a valve at the pump outlet. Valves in the drain line have a different purpose.

Do not use check valves, to prevent a flood due to power out drain down. The failure probability is 100%: not if, but when. The when will be a time when you are not home, to intervene, and minimize the damage.

On my right side corner flow which there is a pic in this thread, what i can do is switch these around and make the 1" pipe the primary drain at full siphon with a gate valve and use the 1.5" as my backup. Does that work? On the left corner, i have a 1" return currently going to a 3/4" loc line split in 3 nozzles. The drain there is 1.5" durso air assisted.

 

[blueramSeattle]

On my right side corner flow which there is a pic in this thread, what i can do is switch these around and make the 1" pipe the primary drain at full siphon with a gate valve and use the 1.5" as my backup. Does that work? On the left corner, i have a 1" return currently going to a 3/4" loc line split in 3 nozzles. The drain there is 1.5" durso air assisted.

My 180 dual overflow has the 3/4" "returns" as siphons and the bigger holes are a pair of dursos. The return from the pump goes over the rim.

I have trouble balancing so I have the 3/4" ~8" long and ~10% of the flow through the dursos. When the pump filter plugs the water level drops and eventually becomes noisy. When the ball valve (I need to gate valve upgrade) clogs the water level rises and the dursos get noisy. I do not have to choke off the pump in my system.

 

[uncleof6]

On my right side corner flow which there is a pic in this thread, what i can do is switch these around and make the 1" pipe the primary drain at full siphon with a gate valve and use the 1.5" as my backup. Does that work? On the left corner, i have a 1" return currently going to a 3/4" loc line split in 3 nozzles. The drain there is 1.5" durso air assisted.

Although what you are thinking for the right hand overflow would work, the open channel in the left hand overflow would muck up the works, and there would be no getting the system dialed in. If running a siphon, an "open channel" aka a durso, and a dry emergency--the siphon and open channel MUST be in the same body of water e.g. the same overflow.

3/4" loc-line is about as useless as it can get. Not to be rude or offensive, but loc-line is juvenile gimmickry. It is nothing but a restriction in the return line, that kills your flow. A single return line functions best, and let the power heads do their job: dispersion.

Also, with this pump, as I said before, you will want to be using 1.25" pipe in and out. Another thing is the pump needs to be 10x the pipe diameter from the elbow, or 12.5" from the elbow to the pump inlet.