Pohl's Coral Vitalizer-What is it?

[MiddletonMark]

:thumbsup:
It's so hard to figure out what's making what effect - seems like a good plan. I'll happily learn what I can from your experience.

 

[examiner]

I have to admit to giving this a shot...started about a week ago when discussion first began.

I run a 58g BB, 2x 250w MH, heavy flow and skimming. Like many, I've experienced a general "lightening" of my sps colors. Not brown, but just light and faded. My photoperiod is a XM 20K for 6 hours, with an AB 10K for 3 hours of that time. So I do have fairly high light, but my photoperiod isn't that long. I do have stable water parameters and I experience what I think is pretty impressive growth.

So my general observations after a week of dosing (2X/day, 6-8 drops per dose)......there *might* be something going on here. I've not noticed any of the sliming effect that has been reported. PE appears to have improved somewhat, most prominent on a pink birdsnest (the polyps literally blow in the flow now), some stags, and a Bali tri-color that never really extended much for me before. Too early to tell on growth or color, but I've documented my current conditions w/ pics, so will check back in a month or so.

In the short-term, the juice seems to knock back my skimmer a bit, and I haven't really noticed much impact on my skimmate (this differs from Pohl's CV users, who claim a darker skimmate after using). I can 100% state that I've witnessed zero negative short-term effects....no increase in film on glass, negative coral reaction, etc. Long-term remains to be seen.

One unexplainied happening....an explosion of pods since I started dosing. I seldom saw them in the past, and now they are literally crawling over the glass, even during the photoperiod. I obviously can't make a direct correlation, but an interesting observation nonetheless.

BTW, I'm using the orange flavored emulsified CLO (just cuz that's what i found).

It might turn out to be nothing, and my perceived benefits may just be wishful thinking/coincidence. It's a $10 investment and a potential risk....but after my brief experience, I'd say the risk is minimal.

 

[G-money]

Lipids will "knock back" your skimmer until they begin to break down/get consumed. CLO is a lipid, clam juice no doubt contains lipids.

It's quite possible that either the clam juice, CLO or both contain high quantities of a particular amino acid responsible for eliciting feeding response. FWIW, sliming is a stress response, not a feeding response.

It amazes me what some folks will do to their entire tank! :lol: Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that we've got people willing to try new things, but on the whole tank!???

I've got a novel idea....how about feeding the tank more? Nothing magic, nothing you feel weird about, just what they'd eat if they weren't trapped in an aquarium . Seriously, all this paranoia about detritus and going BB and keeping your tank uber-clean, blah blah blah. Your corals are most likely paling because they are not getting enough through heterotrophy. "Low nutrient tank" doesn't mean "starved tank". What we're seeing across the board with pale corals in a BB tank is due to not enough food. I'll put money on it.

 

[Jeffie]

It does seem like there are alot of bandwagons lately- not saying that they are bad.

I've seen some great tanks that have had great results utilizing heavy feedings useing Bornemans coral food recipe in his Corals book that he wrote.

 

[onthefly]

Originally posted by G-money "Low nutrient tank" doesn't mean "starved tank". What we're seeing across the board with pale corals in a BB tank is due to not enough food.

Uhh....so which is it?

It doesn't bother me at all that many disagree with my methodology.....but omnipitant "just do what I do" attitudes DO NOT apply across the board to all tanks! I've tried it and watched coral color fade to nothing!

Like I said, I'll be very happy (as a scientist) to post all my before and after pics regardless of the outcomes. I'm not married to any one technique, product, or philosophy, but I'd like my corals to look their best....and that's what I'm trying to achieve.

 

[onthefly]

G-money - I should say that until 2 weeks ago...my tank had no fish....so heavy feeding was not an option for me. That's why I feel that it was starvation. Over the past 3 weeks I've done a number of thing to increase the amount of "nutirents" in the water column. Although any changes well be hard to attribute to one thing....things are starting to perk up

I would like to say that I'm amazed at how well the BB set up is able to cope with my increased feeding!! I haven't seen any adverse effects of the added "nutrients".

 

[G-money]

I don't know why you're disagreeing with me. Read my post again. You seem to think I'm contradicting myself. I'm not.
We're arguing in favor of the same point. ...I think.

As a scientist, yes, sometimes in certain respects, it is nothing more than essentially "do what I do". Feed your tank "enough" and make sure you take "enough" out. That's what I do.

BTW, this is the SPS forum. SPS typically inhabit areas with lots of food and low dissolved nutrients. You're the graduate student, you make the connection.

 

[examiner]

G-Money says:
It amazes me what some folks will do to their entire tank! Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that we've got people willing to try new things, but on the whole tank!???


Ya, but it's not exactly like someone was suggesting that WD-40 was the newest, greatest thing for SPS health. A little basic research into the ingredients pretty much would suggest that the odds of nuking your tank with this mixture are almost nil. I figured at worst I'd see no effect and have an algae bloom, which could quickly be remedied.

Maybe this is my cynical side, but I believe that very few (if any) of the products marketed to reef-keepers was formulated with us in mind. I think for the most part, it's just repackaged stuff that most of us can find in the local grocery/health food store (at a significantly reduced price). Probably my first experience in a health food store was buying the cod liver oil. Holy cow! The shelves were overflowing with every type of lipid, amino acid, growth hormone formulas, etc. etc. I just seriously doubt that any of these reef supply manufacturers are reinventing the wheel when it comes to this stuff. And I doubt Mr. Pohl is either.

I still have no idea whether this CLO/oyster juice concoction is worth any time at all. That's what I hope to find out. But I don't feel it was a irresponsible, dangerous choice to try it out.

 

[onthefly]

I'm not disagreeing with you....just saying you don't know my tank and my situation. Again, in my "specific" situation, I'm convinced that my corals were lacking something. I hear many say, "Light, Flow, Skimmer, and a good CR" is all you need", but unfortunately that is not the case IMHE.

What's in selcon? Yet, how many people use it? Even Bornemans recipe calls for it.

You're right about SPS being feeders, I totally get that!......But, do we really know what they feed on? Hell, 2LFs is selling "marine snow", and people are using it! You mean to tell me that 2LFs has determined the complex makeup of marine snow, managed to bottle it in some way that it is stable.....bah! So many people are using DT's Phyto for their SPS, despite there being no evidence that they eat plant material.

I wonder what people told the first guy who put driveway deicer in his tank?

Like Examiner said, the risks are minimal, and who knows, maybe it will be the next great thing and I'll bottle it and sell it as "John's Juice" and buy a house at the beach

 

[G-money]

Maybe this is my cynical side, but I believe that very few (if any) of the products marketed to reef-keepers was formulated with us in mind.

I agree 100%. That's why some folks don't use any of them.
I wasn't suggesting that clam juice and CLO could nuke your tank. I think I'm just more amazed at how many people will try things without much consideration - or logic. What's that saying, "don't make horses into zebras"...or something.

But, do we really know what they feed on? Hell, 2LFs is selling "marine snow", and people are using it! You mean to tell me that 2LFs has determined the complex makeup of marine snow, managed to bottle it in some way that it is stable.....bah! So many people are using DT's Phyto for their SPS, despite there being no evidence that they eat plant material.

Yes, we do know what they feed on - bacteria and associated biofilms/particulates and zooplankton. This constitutes the bullk of their heterotrophic diet. I'm sure you could find plenty of journal info if you do a quick search at your U's library.

BTW, I'll be the first to "bah" 99.9% of products marketed as "coral food", so I'm not "meaning to tell" you anything.
Please, don't infer and I''ll do the same.

I wonder what people told the first guy who put driveway deicer in his tank?

If you get the MSDS sheet for whatever product it is, you pretty much know exactly what you're putting in your tank - not to say this guy did that, but research can be quick and easy...and not all that crazy if you know what you're working with.

Anyway, back to the program, eh? Sorry...

 

[onthefly]

Yes, we do know what they feed on - bacteria and associated biofilms/particulates and zooplankton. This constitutes the bullk of their heterotrophic diet.

So what is the make up a "biofilm" or "bacterial mulm" and how much of these are running around our tanks. I totally understand that a biofilm is on everything in your tank, but the term bioavailability come to my mind. Do I have to hit my rocks with a turkey baster 2x/day or scrape my glass everyday to get the biofilm in suspension for the SPS the feed? So, in the long run these are, as you and I know them, "unknowns" and I've always though that many in this hobby put too much faith in the theory that our "sterile" boxes of water are somehow planktonic generators.

Good Debate!

 

[wfgworks]

Hey Guys, both of you are providing some good information, but can we keep this thread on topic "Pohls CV"?

This is not a stab at either of you so dont take it the wrong way, its just I hate when I try reading about something new that is 30 pages long and only 10 of those pages are on topic with what was intended to be discussed.

 

[G-money]

Biofilm/bacterial flock/mulm (in my understanding) is a general term for a growth of bacteria - often including the substrate it is growing on and likely deriving its nutrients from. It can be a surface, particulate, or biological "substance" for lack of a better word. I think the only difference in terminology is dependent on the substrate. Putting detritus into suspension will no doubt send lots of bacteria into the water column...

Some corals are believed to even "farm" bacteria on their mucoid surfaces. "Grow their own", if you will...

Sorry, like the man said, back to topic.

 

[onthefly]

like his sig says...."I'll shut up now"

 

[onthefly]

I've been using the homebrew for 14 days now and I just ordered a bottle of CV and AAHC.....so after trying both I'll post pics and report back.

 

[glassbox-design]

Sounds interesting and sketchy at the same time...any updates?

 

[wfgworks]

I will post some pictures tomorrow for everyone.

 

[wfgworks]

Onthefly

What is AAHC?

 

[jsbzmcdaniel]

Its amino acids high concentration.

 

[onthefly]

What he (^^^) said

People in the the zeoworld are seeing good results when dosing both at night