Possible New Cure for Ick?

[JC Pollman]

I took the seaweed and folded it in thirds. I put some selcon in one of the middle folds. I then took some garlic and ginger (each about the size of the last joint of my little finger) smashed them up in to mush, and put the mash on both sides of the seaweed and let it sit for about 10 minutes (or maybe a bit less). Then I cleaned off most of the mash and put the seaweed on the clip. I figured whatever good the galic and ginger does - gets soaked into the seaweed. I also used this as the only feeding of the day so I knew they were hungry and ate it quickly.

Hope this helps.

 

[Thales]

How do weknow if it was the garlic, the ginger, or something else that made all those afflictions go away?

 

[seabreeze]

I actually just did that method myself(without (selcon?)) I'll be sure to do it tomorrow. One other thing, My main tank is now empty(except for my six line) and I'm treating it w/ kick ick and a salinity of 1.016. My plan is to get rid of all hosts for the ick.

IF I leave ther six line in there, will it ruin the hole method?

My response to Lefty, I would asume it's got to be one of the three, cloudy eye doesn't just go away.(from my understanding)

 

[JC Pollman]

Lefty:

from my earlier post on the same page:

Although I fed heavily - including freshly crushed garlic and plenty of selcon,

 

[Thales]

Lefty:

from my earlier post on the same page:

Although I fed heavily - including freshly crushed garlic and plenty of selcon,

Still, how do we know if it was the garlic, the selcon, the food, the ginger, or something else that made the afflictions abate?

 

[Thales]

My response to Lefty, I would asume it's got to be one of the three, cloudy eye doesn't just go away.(from my understanding) [/B]

It is possible for fish to 'fight off' just about any affliction without treatment.

 

[JC Pollman]

Lefty:

I lost 8 fish in about 2 weeks while feeding the garlic and selcon combo. The yellow tang was, in my opinion, very likely to die that night. The only difference was the ginger. Although a thousand other possible reasons could be given for the tang's recovery, the most likely reason, again my opinion, was the ginger. What exactly the ginger did, I do not know, but until someone scientifically proves it is worthless, I am a believer.

My 2 cents: Personally, I consider this (ginger) to be similar to the old days when people were chewing on willow bark to relieve their headaches. They did not need a scientist to tell them why it worked - it just did. However, after science investigated the bark, a purer form of the solution was found. If we had an unlimited supply of well paid scientists working on all the issues of this hobby we would probably not have any of these accidental discoveries. As it is, our resources are limited, and occationally someone will come across something new by chance, and eventualy it becomes a subject of scientific investigation. In any case, no one has reported any negative reactions by using ginger so I do not see any reason to immediately doubt it. We all agree there are proven methods for curing ich, but those methods may not be the only ones that will work.

 

[Thales]

Lefty:

I lost 8 fish in about 2 weeks while feeding the garlic and selcon combo. The yellow tang was, in my opinion, very likely to die that night. The only difference was the ginger. Although a thousand other possible reasons could be given for the tang's recovery, the most likely reason, again my opinion, was the ginger. What exactly the ginger did, I do not know, but until someone scientifically proves it is worthless, I am a believer.

Thanks for the answer.
I don't want proof that it works, just evidence.

My 2 cents: Personally, I consider this (ginger) to be similar to the old days when people were chewing on willow bark to relieve their headaches. They did not need a scientist to tell them why it worked - it just did. However, after science investigated the bark, a purer form of the solution was found.

There are many more examples of 'old days' cures that didn't work than those that did work.

If we had an unlimited supply of well paid scientists working on all the issues of this hobby we would probably not have any of these accidental discoveries.

It seems that we would have more, as they would be paid to try stuff.

In any case, no one has reported any negative reactions by using ginger so I do not see any reason to immediately doubt it.

Because there don't seem to be any negative reactions to ginger shouldn't be a reason to think it cures ich.

We all agree there are proven methods for curing ich, but those methods may not be the only ones that will work.

Agreed, but until I see some better evidence that ginger actually does anything, I cannot be a believer.

Fun discussion!

 

[ATJ]

I lost 8 fish in about 2 weeks while feeding the garlic and selcon combo. The yellow tang was, in my opinion, very likely to die that night. The only difference was the ginger. Although a thousand other possible reasons could be given for the tang's recovery, the most likely reason, again my opinion, was the ginger. What exactly the ginger did, I do not know, but until someone scientifically proves it is worthless, I am a believer.

A few years ago I introduced Cryptocaryon into one of my tanks through insufficient quaratine. I fed garlic soaked food but still lost 3 out of 8 fish (of which 2 wrasses showed no signs). I stopped soaking the food with garlic and the remaining fish got better. I know that the fish got better because they finally acquired an immunity to the parasite.

What if I tried to use ginger at exactly the same time. Would that be evidence that ginger works?

 

[Chicago]

fish that are in good health can fight off ick. some others cannot. the first step is to make sure that all the water parameters are excellent. ph few temp swings, propert water changes ect. in twenty plus years i have found that to be true. IMO there are only two true cures for ick. lowering the salinity and copper. both which should be done in QT tank.

my tangs occasionally get ick when they are stressed. loo=ng time with hands in tank moving corals ecr. or water changes. but the tangs ect always fight off the ick after the water changes.

good luck

 

[JC Pollman]

Lefty:


quote: I don't want proof that it works, just evidence.

I do not want to put words in your mouth, but I think you are being imprecise: what you really want is "scientific" evidence. There are many types of evidence - and some are more exact than others.


quote: There are many more examples of 'old days' cures that didn't work than those that did work.

True, but x-rays and penicillian were accidental finds as well. Even in the scientific world, not everything is planned.


quote: Because there don't seem to be any negative reactions to ginger shouldn't be a reason to think it cures ich.

True, but if it does not cause any significant negative reaction, experimenting with it is surely worth a try. Certainly better to try something than watch your fish die. Yes, I know I should take the fish out and put them in a hospital tank, but that is much easier said than done - not just the effort, but time at home with the family has its worth as well.


quote: Agreed, but until I see some better evidence that ginger actually does anything, I cannot be a believer.

Me thinks we are looking at the problem from opposite ends: you will not try something without scientific proof it works, I am willing to try something as long as there is no evidence it will cause other problems. Glass half empty - glass half full. If we had a much larger pool of scientists working on our problems, I would not be nearly as adventurous.

Chicago:

quote: IMO there are only two true cures for ick. lowering the salinity and copper. both which should be done in QT tank.

I basically agree with you, but I would modify your comment:
"only two true cures" to be truthful, there are only two cures known to work at this time
"should be done in a QT tank", again, at this time, that is the best way to do it.

 

[Thales]

Lefty:

quote: I don't want proof that it works, just evidence.

I do not want to put words in your mouth, but I think you are being imprecise: what you really want is "scientific" evidence. There are many types of evidence - and some are more exact than others.

I don't even want scientific evidence, just evidence that is better than post hoc ergo proptor hoc.

quote: There are many more examples of 'old days' cures that didn't work than those that did work.

True, but x-rays and penicillian were accidental finds as well. Even in the scientific world, not everything is planned.

That is different than what I was responding to.
There is still nothing to support ginger other than post hoc ergo proptor hoc. If someone said feed your fish peanut butter to get rid of ich, would that be worth trying?

quote: Because there don't seem to be any negative reactions to ginger shouldn't be a reason to think it cures ich.

True, but if it does not cause any significant negative reaction, experimenting with it is surely worth a try.

Yes and no. If there is no way to tell if the experiment did anything, it doesn't seem worth experimenting.
My problem is not with the experimenting, its with people saying that the ginger cured ich when there is no way to make that determination.

Certainly better to try something than watch your fish die.

If you can determine some results from the experiment, sure. However, in the case of ich in the home aquarium, you simply can't determine if the ginger did anything. Its superstition.

Yes, I know I should take the fish out and put them in a hospital tank, but that is much easier said than done - not just the effort, but time at home with the family has its worth as well.

What about hypo?

quote: Agreed, but until I see some better evidence that ginger actually does anything, I cannot be a believer.

Me thinks we are looking at the problem from opposite ends: you will not try something without scientific proof it works,

No. I don't need proof, just some evidence that isn't post hoc ergo proptor hoc

I am willing to try something as long as there is no evidence it will cause other problems.

And if it isn't too much of a hassle for you.
There are a whole host of other 'reef safe' ich medicines, have you tried those as well?

Glass half empty - glass half full.

I don't even think there is any water in the glass.

If we had a much larger pool of scientists working on our problems, I would not be nearly as adventurous.

There are lots and lots of scientists working on fish diseases in the aquaculture industry. Disease in aquaculture is a very real problem.

 

[onefin]

Also tagging along, can't wait to hear the long term affect, hope it works it would be great.

 

[melev]

Still reading along, as I've done since page one.

Lefty, would you be so kind as to translate your 3x mentioned latin (?) phrase?

 

[Thales]

Still reading along, as I've done since page one.

Lefty, would you be so kind as to translate your 3x mentioned latin (?) phrase?

Sorry - and I spelled 'propter' wrong!

From http://skepdic.com/posthoc.html :

The post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this therefore because of this) fallacy is based upon the mistaken notion that simply because one thing happens after another, the first event was a cause of the second event. Post hoc reasoning is the basis for many superstitions and erroneous beliefs.

Many events follow sequential patterns without being causally related. For example, you have a cold, so you drink fluids and two weeks later your cold goes away. You have a headache so you stand on your head and six hours later your headache goes away. You put acne medication on a pimple and three weeks later the pimple goes away. You perform some task exceptionally well after forgetting to bathe, so the next time you have to perform the same task you don't bathe. A solar eclipse occurs so you beat your drums to make the gods spit back the sun. The sun returns, proving to you the efficacy of your action.

You use your dowsing stick and then you find water. You imagine heads coming up on a coin toss and heads comes up. You rub your lucky charm and what you wish for comes true. You lose your lucky charm and you strike out six times. You have a "vision" that a body is going to be found near water or in a field and later a body is found near water or in a field. You have a dream that an airplane crashes and an airplane crashes the next day or crashed the night before.

However, sequences don't establish a probability of causality any more than correlations do. Coincidences happen. Occurring after an event is not sufficient to establish that the prior event caused the later one. To establish the probability of a causal connection between two events, controls must be established to rule out other factors such as chance or some unknown causal factor. Anecdotes aren't sufficient because they rely on intuition and subjective interpretation. A controlled study is necessary to reduce the chance of error from self-deception.

 

[JC Pollman]

Lefty:

quote: you simply can't determine if the ginger did anything. Its superstition.

No, it is not superstition - it is just not proven to your satisfaction/standards. Nor has it been disproven. All we know right now is that it might have worked for several people. In fact, we do not even have evidence, post hoc ergo propter hoc, that it does not work. Insufficient research does not disprove anything - it merely casts doubts for the time being.

quote: There are a whole host of other 'reef safe' ich medicines, have you tried those as well?

Ah, but there are numerous threads here, and elsewhere, where people have not had success with these medicines. Why would I want to try them? The original poster of this thread tried ginger and had success. I have tried it and had success. Does that guarenttee that ginger cured the ich? No, it does not - as you have pointed out, but it is possible ginger did have a positive effect. If enough people have success with a given medicine/procedure/etc, then it should be cause for further study - not be rejected out of hand because no one has properly studied it yet.

quote: I don't even think there is any water in the glass.

You might have missed the point: hobbiest and scientists do not necessarily view the issues from the same point of view.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your point (and if so, please accept my apoligies). You have implied that only people with the necessary knowledge/skills/equipment should say/publish/etc about something new as they are they only ones who can provide adequate proof. And if a hobbiest considered experimenting, he/she should not post their results, as the results will be inherently unacceptable. As such, I wold think there would be only 2 possible replies to posts on this board:
1. The authoritive solution (with acceptable evidence) for your problem can be found at this link/magazine/book/etc
or 2. Wow - great looking tank/fish/setup/etc.

 

[Thales]

quote: There are a whole host of other 'reef safe' ich medicines, have you tried those as well?

Ah, but there are numerous threads here, and elsewhere, where people have not had success with these medicines. Why would I want to try them?

And in those threads there are many more people who report 'success' with those treatments than with ginger.

If enough people have success with a given medicine/procedure/etc, then it should be cause for further study - not be rejected out of hand because no one has properly studied it yet.

I'm not rejecting it out of hand, I am rejecting it because there is no evidence to support its use - in the same way I reject the idea that changing light bulbs cures ich.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your point (and if so, please accept my apoligies).

Accepted!

You have implied that only people with the necessary knowledge/skills/equipment should say/publish/etc about something new as they are they only ones who can provide adequate proof.

That was not my intent at all, and I am not sure how I have given that impression.
Again, I don't really care about proof - its about evidence. So far there really isn't any evidence that ginger does anything for ich, its all post hoc ergo propter hoc. I think everyone involved should be sharing their experiences.

And if a hobbiest considered experimenting, he/she should not post their results, as the results will be inherently unacceptable.

I don't mean that at all, and I am not sure how I have given that impression.
I do think that the hobby would be better served if people understood the life cycle of ich and how it relates to 'experimental' cures. Hobbiests should continue to expirement, but we need to be understanding of basic fallicies.

 

[JC Pollman]

Lefty:

Again, please accept my apologies if I have misrepresented any of your comments.

I guess my motivation for commenting here is my job: my boss'es boss is constantly berating us to think out side the box, while my boss wants proof for everything. Having witnessed the failure to progress/evolve/"spring forward", I am much more inclined to try new things. Although we had "better not throw the baby out with the bathwater", there are just so many things we do not know, and if everything has to be proven 100% before any step is taken, we will meet the same fate as the dinosaurs.

Anyway - nice exchange.

JC

 

[DaddyJax]

HOLY COW!! I have just spent the better part of the day reading this 1 1/2 year old post and I have come to the conclusion that ginger is a extremely benificial suplement to help with ich! I havent read where it did harm and I agree that it problaby needs to have a few Phd's saying that it is a cure before skeptics can back off but looking at the posts and the results it has brought to so many people and theyre fish can not go without recognition! I have the very beginings of ich on my tang because I added thirty pounds of rock and stressed it out after three days of bringing it home so I hope I can recieve the same success!
as for the skeptics, keep being skeptical! you keep all of the fool hardy optomists in balance.

Allthough it just might be time to accept this one!

 

[Thales]

I don't understand. 2 or 3 people report 'success' by feeding ginger, 2 or 3 people report no success feeding ginger and people who do nothing have the same results as the people who feed ginger - and you are concluding that ginger is extremely beneficial to fight off ich? Could you explain how you come to that conclusion, because I am at a loss.

TIA

RR