Possible New Cure for Ick?

[melev]

Rich, I think what is paramount to this discussion is to determine if ginger is detrimental to the fish or other livestock in question.

I'd love to start a new thread/poll asking anyone that has a fish with ich in December to dose with a specified amount of ginger per gallon, and have all of them post their results. If we had 50 or 100 people do this, it might be interesting to compare the results. It might be 50/50, it might be 70/30, it might be 99 out of 100 didn't get any benefit - but it would be good to know if anything else occured in the tank due to ginger...

... less algae on the glass?
... anemones retracting?
... corals, bristleworms, snails or clams spawning?
... LPS & leathers shrinking?
... skimmer output increased or decreased?
... fish health decline or sluggish?
... increase or decrease of appetite?

I doubt it will happen, but I would find this type of hobbyist-comparison thread interesting. Maybe by getting more people involved in this topic, we could get some scientists to give us some evidence one way or another.

 

[DaddyJax]

My response is that it is helpful in the fight! not a CURE! I dont have the Phd! The assistance that it gives along with garlic seems to help with the fishes own immune system!

Just curious what Bay area are you from?

 

[DaddyJax]

I second that motion and will particiapate!

 

[Thales]

Rich, I think what is paramount to this discussion is to determine if ginger is detrimental to the fish or other livestock in question.

I agree, although I think such a determination in regards to garlic should be done first.

 

[Thales]

My response is that it is helpful in the fight! not a CURE! I dont have the Phd!

I know! My questions remain the same - the evidence seems to show that ginger is actually neutral in the fight, and I am unsure how you are coming to the conclusion that it is helpful.

The assistance that it gives along with garlic seems to help with the fishes own immune system!

Again, I see no good evidence of such assistance. I also see no good evidence for garlic helping with the immune system.

Just curious what Bay area are you from?

SF Bay Area.

 

[hwyman]

I share the concern that people will try ginger and not a proven method such as hyposalinity
Terry B

Where is all the scienetific studies that prove hypo works? Just because someone puts fish in a tank and lowers the salinity for a period of time and the ich goes away is not a proven method, it is the same as this ginger method, except that a bunch of people says it works. even a experment of controled groups one with hypo and one with ginger one with garlic and one with nothing doesn't prove anything, because the fish of each group could kick the ich on thier own. So if the fish in all but one group kick the ich does that mean that all the methods but that one works? Maybe if some one where to use a microscope and see if any of the methods kill the ich dead. As far as I know only copper will kill the ich parasite.

 

[Thales]

Where is all the scienetific studies that prove hypo works? Just because someone puts fish in a tank and lowers the salinity for a period of time and the ich goes away is not a proven method, it is the same as this ginger method, except that a bunch of people says it works. even a experment of controled groups one with hypo and one with ginger one with garlic and one with nothing doesn't prove anything, because the fish of each group could kick the ich on thier own. So if the fish in all but one group kick the ich does that mean that all the methods but that one works? Maybe if some one where to use a microscope and see if any of the methods kill the ich dead. As far as I know only copper will kill the ich parasite.

Its not really a 'bunch of people' saying that hypo is effective against ich - it has been the subject of rigorous study in the aquaculture industry.

In this thread there are numerous references and links to hypo research.

There are also sources at the bottom of these articles:

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm

And this link discusses this thread, as well as garlic:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.htm

 

[hwyman]

Hyposalinity should be maintained for at least 4 weeks but 6 weeks is preferable. If there is any reinfection of the "Ich" during the treatment, the treatment should be extended to at least 4 weeks after the disappearance of the last cyst.

Direct quote from first link.
If hypo kills the cyst why would they show up again in 4 weeks?
still no sciencetific study just anadotal evidence. same as garlic or ginger. " I lowered the salinity and the ich went away." "I added garlic and the ich went away." Same argument for both. Maybe natural immunity gets rid of the ich when you do hypo as well as garlic or ginger. You have yet to provide eveidence for or against either one.

 

[hwyman]

Taken from second link.

Low salinity has been demonstrated to be an effective treatment against Cryptocaryon irritans (Noga, 2000).

"Has been demonstrated" That isn't quite scientific. You can say that garlic "has been demonstrated to be an effective treatment" also along with ginger.

On the contrary, keeping fish in low salinity means that they don't "flush" their kidneys sufficiently. After long-term exposure, this can cause kidney failure and kill the fish (Shimek, pers. comm..)

So if you have to do hypo for 4 weeks, then find a cyst that didn't die you have to go 4 more weeks and risk killing the fish from it.

Still no scientific evidence just anecdotal.

 

[Thales]

If you want the evidence you need to look at the research papers cited, not the articles written for hobby consumption that reference those papers.

There are a bunch more at the ends of each part of this five part series. This one may be particularly useful:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

 

[ATJ]

Hyposalinity should be maintained for at least 4 weeks but 6 weeks is preferable. If there is any reinfection of the "Ich" during the treatment, the treatment should be extended to at least 4 weeks after the disappearance of the last cyst.

Direct quote from first link.
If hypo kills the cyst why would they show up again in 4 weeks?
still no sciencetific study just anadotal evidence. same as garlic or ginger. " I lowered the salinity and the ich went away." "I added garlic and the ich went away." Same argument for both. Maybe natural immunity gets rid of the ich when you do hypo as well as garlic or ginger. You have yet to provide eveidence for or against either one.

Get yourself a copy of each of the following papers and read them:

Cheung P.J., Nigrelli R.F. and Ruggieri G.D. 1979. Studies on cryptocaryoniasis in marine fish: effect of temperature and salinity on reproductive cycle of <i>Cryptocaryon irritans</i> Brown, 1951. <i>J. Fish Dis.</i>.<b>2</b>:93-97.

Colorni A. 1985. Aspects of the biology of <i>Cryptocaryon irritans</i>, and hyposalinity as a control measure in cultured gilt-head sea bream <i>Sparus aurata</i>. <i>Dis. Aquat. Org.</i>.<b>1</b>:19-22.

In both studies, the tomonts and tomites were killed by low salinity.

This was not just a matter of sticking some possibly infected fish in low salinity and observing if they get better. They directly studied the effects of low salinity on each of the phases of the life cycle of the parasite.

 

[Jedburgh72]

I'm thinking of giving this ginger thing a shot. I'll report on the progress as well. I could KICK myself for buying this blue tang even after noticing that another blue tang in the same tank had pop-eye. That was dumb. I purchased an Achilles Tang from the same store and now both fish are totally covered with ick. None of my other fish are infected however... just the tangs. I also have 3 various wrasse's a couple of clowns and an original "cycle" damsel that has hung in there. I've also noticed a lot of "stuff" floating around in the tank. Can't tell if they are tiny bubbles or something else. In any case, on my 60 I always do a 10 gallon change every week.

 

[DgenR8]

With 2 Tangs in a 60 gallon tank, your chances of kicking the problem are not good. Healthy fish can fight off the parasite, but a stressed fish is not a healthy fish. 2 Tangs + 60 gallon tank = stress.

 

[melev]

Jedburgh72,

[welcome]

Unfortunately, things look dire for your tangs. It is a smaller tank as Larry pointed out, and taking back a fish that is covered in ich is a good chance it won't survive much longer. I hope you can help the tangs recover, but once healthy I recommend you find them a larger home elsewhere.

My tank is 6' long and my tangs make it look TOO short, too.

 

[hwyman]

Taken from second article of the series.
advanced aquarist article 2

Several new strains of Cryptocaryon irritans have been identified in Taiwan and other locations (Burgess & Mathews, 1995. Diggles and Adlard,1997). Highly aberrant and divergent isolates from Chiayi and Kaoshiung are of particular interest (Yambot, et al., 2003). The Chiayi isolate was discovered in a pond with a salinity of only 5ppt. This was the first recorded incidence of a Cryptocaryon irritans outbreak at such a low salinity. The Kaoshiung isolate was obtained from 12th-generation tomonts that originated from a cage at 10ppt salinity (Yambot, et al., 2003). Diggles and Lester, (1996a) suggested that the range of Cryptocaryon irritans has extended into estuaries.

taken from third article of the series.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.htm

However, this may change with if low salinity variants of Cryptocaryon irritans become common or widespread.

Posted by ATJ

Get yourself a copy of each of the following papers and read them:

Cheung P.J., Nigrelli R.F. and Ruggieri G.D. 1979. Studies on cryptocaryoniasis in marine fish: effect of temperature and salinity on reproductive cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans Brown, 1951. J. Fish Dis..2:93-97.

Colorni A. 1985. Aspects of the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans, and hyposalinity as a control measure in cultured gilt-head sea bream Sparus aurata. Dis. Aquat. Org..1:19-22.

In both studies, the tomonts and tomites were killed by low salinity.

I can not find these studies online, can you make them available?

I have no doubt that hypno kills some of the ich parasite, but they have found ich that can live at low salinity as well, so how can you be sure which ich parasite you are infected with?

Also thier are people here who have used hypno and it did not work. Along with the first article that lefty mentioned I believe I quoted,

Hyposalinity should be maintained for at least 4 weeks but 6 weeks is preferable. If there is any reinfection of the "Ich" during the treatment, the treatment should be extended to at least 4 weeks after the disappearance of the last cyst.

If this is the prescribed procedure for hypno then That in itself shows that hypno does not kill all the parasite.

Then you also need to address the fact that hypno is not good for extended periods of time. To quote Dr. Ron

On the contrary, keeping fish in low salinity means that they don't "flush" their kidneys sufficiently. After long-term exposure, this can cause kidney failure and kill the fish (Shimek, pers. comm..)

ATJ, please get us a link to those studies, or someplace were I could buy them and then read them.

 

[hwyman]

read this.

Here is probably the best way to get rid of ich, other then copper. MAKE SURE YOU READ THE WHOLE THING.

It doesn't use hypno to kill the ich but lower salinity to reduce stress. The transfer method is the a proven way to get rid of ich. If you go with hypno you might as well try garlic or ginger first.

 

[ATJ]

I can't see how a discussion on the effectiveness of hyposalinity treatment helps in ay way to demonstrate if ginger is effective.

It is true that Yambot et al (2003) described two different sources of what is believed to be C. irritans surviving and reproducing on water with a salinity below 16‰, but there is no evidence to date (yet) that those strains are in circulation in the aquarium industry.

Originally posted by hwyman

I can not find these studies online, can you make them available?

No. That would be a breach of copyright. You will have to make a trip to a library that has them and make copies yourself. I see that the University of Wisconsin - Madison has Journal of Fish Diseases so that one will be easy. You will probably have to go further afield to find Diseases of Aquatic Organisms.

I have no doubt that hypno kills some of the ich parasite, but they have found ich that can live at low salinity as well, so how can you be sure which ich parasite you are infected with?

It is hypo not hypno.

The low salinity strains were found in Taiwan, in isolated conditions. As far as I know, the US does not import marine aquarium fish from Taiwan so it is unlikely that those strains are in the industry in the US (or elsewhere).

Also thier are people here who have used hypno and it did not work. Along with the first article that lefty mentioned I believe I quoted, If this is the prescribed procedure for hypno then That in itself shows that hypno does not kill all the parasite.

Hyposalinity fails for some people because they do not keep the salinity low enough. Evaporation can allow the salinity to drift higher than the effective level and if the person is not vigilant the treatment can fail. This is no different from any treatment if performed as required.

This does not demonstrate that hyposalinity does not kill all the parasites.

Then you also need to address the fact that hypno is not good for extended periods of time. To quote Dr. Ron

Dr Ron is an invertebrate zoologist. Marine bony fish are vertebrates and have a very different physiology, especially in respect to ion regulation. The gills are the main site of ion regulation and the kidneys only play a minor role. There have been numerous studies showing not only survival of marine bony fish in low salinity water, but some actually do better.

ATJ, please get us a link to those studies, or someplace were I could buy them and then read them.

The studies are not available online. You will have to get yourself hard copies.

 

[ATJ]

read this.

Here is probably the best way to get rid of ich, other then copper. MAKE SURE YOU READ THE WHOLE THING.

It doesn't use hypno to kill the ich but lower salinity to reduce stress. The transfer method is the a proven way to get rid of ich. If you go with hypno you might as well try garlic or ginger first.

The transfer method was described by Colorni (1987).

It does work well, but may not be practical for many people:

* You need two treatment tanks and most people have problems even having one.
* You also must catch the fish every three days, which can be quite stressful for both the fish and the hobbyist.
* You have to be available to catch the fish every three days. You can't transfer them in less that 3 days or they may still be infected and you can't transfer them after more than 3 days as they may have become reinfected.


Colorni A. 1987. Biology of <i>Cryptocaryon irritans</i> and strategies for its control. <i>Aquaculture</i>.<b>67(1-2)</b>:236-237.

 

[firefish2020]

Next time we get in a fish with ich I will try this meathod at the shop and report if you like. I think you need to make notes of the tank parameters such as size, temp, pH, etc if we are to learn anything from this study.

 

[billsreef]

firefish2020,

Such studies can be useful. But to get scientifically sound Data, you will need completely separate tanks that are set up identically. Some will be used for the experimental treatment regimens and at least one with no treatment as a control. Ideally they will also be stocked with identical species infected with the same strain at the same time. I find a load of damsels is quite good for these type experiments