Possible New Cure for Ick?
- Thread starter cratylus
- Start date
firefish2020
New member
100% agree a control is needed if anything is to be found out that may prove useful in treating in the future. I'll keep you updated as to any progress or lack thereof.
ATJ
Premium Member
firefish2020 said:
You will also need to verify that the fish have Cryptocaryon before starting the treatment. This will involve skin scrapings and examination under a microscope.
After the treatment, if the fish no longer show signs of infection, you will have to do scrapings again to be sure that there are no parasites left.
Of course, it still won't be conclusive unless your sample size in treatment and in the control are large enough.
firefish2020
New member
I don't think it would be "conclusive" at all really as there are always going to be certain factors and procedures that will not be accepted by those who are skeptical of the treatment. There are so many variables involved that it would be almost impossible to replicate an identical set of environments necessary for a true experiment. Nonetheless I feel it is important to pursue any glimmer of hope for a disease that has plagued aquaria and reef keeping for far to long now. I know there are desperate individuals out there that would throw a rotten egg into there system if someone reported success with it as a treatment for Ich but thatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s really not a reason to try such a desperate measure IMO 
JHReef
New member
You know, this thread has turned into an ugly purple monster! Do you people (well only some of you thankfully) think that every single innovation in this hobby came from some scientific lab with control groups, structured scientific method, and years of research, just so some egotistic fools can agree that it should work??? I can tell you this. If I get a fish with ick, I'll try ginger. PERIOD. Not due to desperation, stupidity, or following the herd, but because someone with some years of experience tried something new. They were nice enough to share it with their fellow hobbyists. There was no mention of a scientific paper being published. As far as publishing goes, does every book you've ever read have the same methods? No you say? Do you jump on them for not having the same rigorous scientific methods? If you're a marine biologist, maybe, but if you're a hobbyist, you consider what they say based on your own experience and apply those methods with which you agree. GEEEZ!!!
ATJ
Premium Member
JHReef said:
If you went to your doctor because you had a debilitating ailment and the doctor said the following:
"OK, I know what causes this problem and it can be fatal. There are two choices for treatment. There is one proven treatment which has been backed by studies and it is understood how it works. There is another treatment that I just read about on a web site. A few people have tried it and it appears to be successful, but we can't be sure that it really works. The choice of treatment is yours."
Which treatment would you use to save your life?
AJtheReefer
New member
Nothing wrong for those who wish to try the Ginger treatment. . .
All we can do is to report the anecdotal evidence that we see on our home aquariums. There are some of us that are willing to try something based on anecdotal evidence.
I understand the risks involved and those who tried should too.
All we can do is to report the anecdotal evidence that we see on our home aquariums. There are some of us that are willing to try something based on anecdotal evidence.
I understand the risks involved and those who tried should too.
JHReef
New member
ATJ said:
Sounds like apples and oranges to me.
But just for fun...Yes, it's called clinical trials. That's how new and important, not to mention more affordable, and faster cures for debilitating conditions are proven effective. Thats why there are often several medications available for any given ailment. New discoveries are made all the time.
Say you have cancer. If a doctor told you you could go through months of Chemo-therapy, or take a new pill to cure cancer, which would you choose? You're gonna die if you don't try one of them.
So is it the one where all your hair falls out, makes you puke, ruins your appetite, and could kill you anyway, since it's a proven method?
Or do you try a new pill that allows you to have a good quality of life, not put your body through so much stress, and works, but without a long track record of years of success?
The choice is yours as well Mr Science Guy. I see this "unproven" ginger treatment as a better alternative. Chemotherapy and hyposalinity do not have a 100% success rate BTW.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just a lowly hobbyist.
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
But your `non-chemo drug' choice would have been thru clinical trials ... thus quite unlike ginger.
The ginger cure would be your doctor saying `you can either do chemo or else there's something I read about online, totally unstudied, that is reputed to work by some members of a discussion board'.
It's quite different than any medicine that would have been thru trials [where it was proven to work at least some of the time] ...
---
In the end, I'm taking my fish to Dr. ATJ, where the cure has a high likelihood of working and while not the opinion of a certain invertebrate doctor ... will not harm most fish.
Heck, it's worked for me.
The ginger cure would be your doctor saying `you can either do chemo or else there's something I read about online, totally unstudied, that is reputed to work by some members of a discussion board'.
It's quite different than any medicine that would have been thru trials [where it was proven to work at least some of the time] ...
---
In the end, I'm taking my fish to Dr. ATJ, where the cure has a high likelihood of working and while not the opinion of a certain invertebrate doctor ... will not harm most fish.
Heck, it's worked for me.
hwynboy
Active member
I look to ATJ many times for his opinions and he tells me when they are facts and when they are opinions. Curing ICH via hyposalinity is fact studied, duplicated, and proven. There truly is no other guaranteed way other than copper.
People here can get so pig heaaded because they would rather be NOT told what to do...they want a QUICK fix...an EASY out....oh so I can dump XXXXX into my tank and make things go away..groovy I'll just do that...catching all my fish is impossible and way too difficult anyway. BS. I have a 300 gallon tank and had to break all the LR down to fish out a couple of them...not impossible BUT ONE HELL OF A BIATCH.
Look folks it's just not that way. Taking the easy route isn't always the best route. Just goes to show you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. In the meantime you keep struggling with your garlic supplements and I'll enjoy my tank FULL of fish that are free of that dreaded parasite...and I'll keep my 6 QT tanks on the side for newcomers like always.
People here can get so pig heaaded because they would rather be NOT told what to do...they want a QUICK fix...an EASY out....oh so I can dump XXXXX into my tank and make things go away..groovy I'll just do that...catching all my fish is impossible and way too difficult anyway. BS. I have a 300 gallon tank and had to break all the LR down to fish out a couple of them...not impossible BUT ONE HELL OF A BIATCH.
Look folks it's just not that way. Taking the easy route isn't always the best route. Just goes to show you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. In the meantime you keep struggling with your garlic supplements and I'll enjoy my tank FULL of fish that are free of that dreaded parasite...and I'll keep my 6 QT tanks on the side for newcomers like always.
ATJ
Premium Member
JHReef said:Sounds like apples and oranges to me.
Yes, it's called clinical trials. That's how new and important, not to mention more affordable, and faster cures for debilitating conditions are proven effective. Thats why there are often several medications available for any given ailment. New discoveries are made all the time.
Say you have cancer. If a doctor told you you could go through months of Chemo-therapy, or take a new pill to cure cancer, which would you choose? You're gonna die if you don't try one of them.
So is it the one where all your hair falls out, makes you puke, ruins your appetite, and could kill you anyway, since it's a proven method?
Or do you try a new pill that allows you to have a good quality of life, not put your body through so much stress, and works, but without a long track record of years of success?
The choice is yours as well Mr Science Guy. I see this "unproven" ginger treatment as a better alternative. Chemotherapy and hyposalinity do not have a 100% success rate BTW.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just a lowly hobbyist.
A clinical trial would never be started before it has already been demonstrated that the treatment actually does something. This would involve various in vitro studies on tissue samples and then trials on mice or rats again to see if the treatment does something.
The clinical trials, once started, are very closely monitored with tests being done on the patients before, during and after the treatment to assess the affect of the treatment both on the ailment and on the general health of the patient. Additionally, the clinical trial would include some patients who are given a placebo to eliminate psychological effects. Finally, many clinical trials are terminated early because of side effects of the drug being tested.
People trying ginger when they think their fish have Cryptocaryon is so far from a clinical trial it is not funny. Apart from the fact that absolutely no prework has been done to show that ginger does anything for the fish or the parasite, there is no verification before, during or after the treatment on the status of the Cryptocaryon. There is no control group receiving the placebo. There is no assessment of possible side effects of the treatment on the fish or other organisms in the tank.
At this point all we have on ginger is a very small number of people that tried it and found that the fish recovered from a suspected Cryptocaryon infection. It is worth noting that fish can and do recover from Cryptocaryon without any treatment at all through an acquired immunity.
For the cases where ginger has apparently been successful:
* We do know that the fish had Cryptocaryon
* We do no know if they recovered because of the ginger or because of an acquired immunity
* We can't even be sure that the Cryptocaryon has gone. Perhaps ginger causes a partial immunity
* We do not know if ginger has any side effects to the fish or any other organisms in the tank
* We don't even know that ginger does anything
I don't understand how you can claim that ginger is a "better alternative" when we don't even know if it works.
hwynboy
Active member
JHReef said:
For the record it's Hauoli Maka'hiki Hou
And I don't enjoy tearing my reef apart. I do it for the lives that depend on me knowing what I am doing in my tank. Namely my fish. I have done it twice and it was twice too many in this size tank. But I am happy to report that I have not had a fish die of ICH in any of my 4 tanks since I have implemented a strict QT system and have used hypo on the fish that had ICH a couple years ago. Ask anyone that knows me...I have more QT tanks empty waiting to bne utilized than I do tanks running. It's the safest thing for my fish.
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
It's been a year since I had the opportunity to see Hwynboy's tanks .. but he's not kidding about those QT setups.
He's got half the tanks that the local LFS do ... and some healthy fish
He's got half the tanks that the local LFS do ... and some healthy fish
cratylus
New member
UPDATE from the Starter of this Thread...
The Purple Tang is not only still alive, but healthy and robust. I'm sure the ginger had absolutely nothing to do with this. After all, we have amateur marine biologists who say so. And as everyone here knows, amateur marine biologists know everything there is to know about this hobby. They have all the answers and if they say ginger doesn't work, well by golly that settles it!
I have continued to use ginger as a supplement in my homemade fish food mix. Since I started using it, I have had zero new instances of ick with any of my fish. Again, I'm sure it's just my lucky rabbit's foot that's doing it; I'm sure the ginger has nothing to do with it.
Furthermore, I discussed the little "experiment" I did with the owner of the fish store where I got the Tang. He was so intrigued that my Tang survived that he decided to try his own "experiment" with the ginger supplement. Some of the fish that arrive at his store inevitably get ick from shipping-induced stress. He started feeding them ginger-treated food in their quarantine tank. Over a 6 month period, his marine fish losses due to shipping-induced ick dropped from about 12% of his total fish purchases to just under 1%. The only change he made in his normal regimen, purchasing habits, introduction methods, etc. was the addition of ginger-treated food. He is absolutely convinced that it works and he has data to support that belief. But alas, it's only anecdotal data. So as we all know, the better survival rates he experienced were probably due to the changing paint color schemes on the fish store walls, infinitely small shifts in the Earth's Van Allen belts, outside tampering by invisible fairies, or an increased number of prayers to Jobu by store patrons. I'm sure it was anything other than the ginger.
In my opinion, it's only a matter of time before somebody out there performs a rigorous "scientific" study and determines scientifically that ginger does work. At that point, all the board naysayers will jump on the bandwagon and proclaim how they knew all along that ginger really worked but they were too afraid to admit it for fear of being ridiculed on the message boards here.
In the meantime, the self-proclaimed "experts" and board naysayers will continue to pat themselves on their backs for how "intelligent" and "faithful to the hobby" they are. They also will continue to spout their vitriolic rantings of how much damage I am doing to this hobby for talking about an "unproven" treatment.
C'est la vie!
The Purple Tang is not only still alive, but healthy and robust. I'm sure the ginger had absolutely nothing to do with this. After all, we have amateur marine biologists who say so. And as everyone here knows, amateur marine biologists know everything there is to know about this hobby. They have all the answers and if they say ginger doesn't work, well by golly that settles it!
I have continued to use ginger as a supplement in my homemade fish food mix. Since I started using it, I have had zero new instances of ick with any of my fish. Again, I'm sure it's just my lucky rabbit's foot that's doing it; I'm sure the ginger has nothing to do with it.
Furthermore, I discussed the little "experiment" I did with the owner of the fish store where I got the Tang. He was so intrigued that my Tang survived that he decided to try his own "experiment" with the ginger supplement. Some of the fish that arrive at his store inevitably get ick from shipping-induced stress. He started feeding them ginger-treated food in their quarantine tank. Over a 6 month period, his marine fish losses due to shipping-induced ick dropped from about 12% of his total fish purchases to just under 1%. The only change he made in his normal regimen, purchasing habits, introduction methods, etc. was the addition of ginger-treated food. He is absolutely convinced that it works and he has data to support that belief. But alas, it's only anecdotal data. So as we all know, the better survival rates he experienced were probably due to the changing paint color schemes on the fish store walls, infinitely small shifts in the Earth's Van Allen belts, outside tampering by invisible fairies, or an increased number of prayers to Jobu by store patrons. I'm sure it was anything other than the ginger.
In my opinion, it's only a matter of time before somebody out there performs a rigorous "scientific" study and determines scientifically that ginger does work. At that point, all the board naysayers will jump on the bandwagon and proclaim how they knew all along that ginger really worked but they were too afraid to admit it for fear of being ridiculed on the message boards here.
In the meantime, the self-proclaimed "experts" and board naysayers will continue to pat themselves on their backs for how "intelligent" and "faithful to the hobby" they are. They also will continue to spout their vitriolic rantings of how much damage I am doing to this hobby for talking about an "unproven" treatment.
C'est la vie!
Cratylus: You might want to check out this thread on another Ich treatment. I was very successful using Ich Attack by Kordon with Coral-Vital by Marc Weiss. Here is the discussion thread that took place over a five week period. BTW, my ich has been gone for six weeks now.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4002176#post4002176
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4002176#post4002176
Thales
Active member
cratylus said:
I am confused and saddened by your insults and incorrect conclusions regarding what people do think and what they will think in the future.
In addition, I am saddened at the your failure to understand what people have been saying in this thread about anecdotal evidence and the difference between a single example of such evidence and what you have reported from your LFS.
Mostly, I am at a loss regarding your attacks on others.
C'est la vie.
crichard6069
New member
cratylus, I respect everything you have said regarding your experiences, regardless of who says what. I sat down this morning and read this entire thread, front to back, and you have certainly peaked my curiousity with this.
For what it is worth, I greatly appreciate you sharing your experience and will even try this on my own as I am of the belief that a more natural treatment is better than medications. I've heard all of the lectures regarding ich, hypo, etc., etc.... well, regardless of whether ginger helps ich or not, I believe it will atleast boost the immune system and is worth trying.
cratylus, good luck with everything! And again, thank you very much for sharing your input. Hopefully you don't stop!!!!
Thanks!!!!
Chad
For what it is worth, I greatly appreciate you sharing your experience and will even try this on my own as I am of the belief that a more natural treatment is better than medications. I've heard all of the lectures regarding ich, hypo, etc., etc.... well, regardless of whether ginger helps ich or not, I believe it will atleast boost the immune system and is worth trying.
cratylus, good luck with everything! And again, thank you very much for sharing your input. Hopefully you don't stop!!!!
Thanks!!!!
Chad
