the_anti_honda
New member
Kip do you think I should be using an air stone when I do doxy baths? To keep the o2 levels up and not though the ph out of whack?
Possible Pathogen Based Acro Necrosis
- Thread starter Kip
- Start date
The Saltman
New member
My question is how the long term effects of the doxy/chloraphenicol are? There has to be some good bacteria that are being destroyed as well with these baths. Also, I wonder if all acro will respond the same to the baths when incorporated into a regular Qt plan.
Kip, so sorry you had to go through this episode.
I was watching your thread with a huge sense of dread, so I'm happy a cure seems to have been found.
Saltman, I believe that the coral can find the good bacteria it needs from the water column to replace any that are killed off by the treatment.
I was watching your thread with a huge sense of dread, so I'm happy a cure seems to have been found.
Saltman, I believe that the coral can find the good bacteria it needs from the water column to replace any that are killed off by the treatment.
wentreefgirl
New member
Wow, well if mine persists I have the pigeon food for the job. Seems to be ok for now. Only the superman porites and one other with minimal. Although not much superman left. I iodine dipped it last night in hopes of a last ditch effort.
montrealreef
Member
Hi Kip,
I just went throught the entire thread & I'm so happy to hear that things seem to be improving. I'm not very active in the discussion forums as I really have very little time to spare, But i want to share my experience with you.
I'v been in the reef keeing hobby for 2 years, and have been keeping SPS for roughy 1.5 years. Everything was going great, I was very pleased with the growth and coloration my corals achieved, till about 3 months ago. I bought a deep water acro which I put through a 2 week quarantine and iodine dip before I introduced it to my display tank. It seemed to be doing well for a a couple of weeks but then it started to necrose in the same manner that you described. I first noted it late at night and by the next morning only the tips were left. I tried to save a few frags, but I was not succesful. Over the next month or so, this "disease" hit one colony after the other, surprizingly affecting my oldest, largest and hardiest corals first. I lost about 15 colonies to this phenomenon. I tired all the following:
1) Daily 15 % water changes for 2 weeks
2) Incresed the flow to improve the O2 delivery and help wash away excess mucus
3) Daily Idoine dips for affected colonies
4) The addition of concentrated amino acids ( supposidly increases coral immunity)
5) Lowered the tanks temp to 76-78
6) Upgraded the pump on my protein skimmer in rder to boost performance
7) Decreased intensity/duration of photoperiod by putting my three MHs on alternating timers
I just went throught the entire thread & I'm so happy to hear that things seem to be improving. I'm not very active in the discussion forums as I really have very little time to spare, But i want to share my experience with you.
I'v been in the reef keeing hobby for 2 years, and have been keeping SPS for roughy 1.5 years. Everything was going great, I was very pleased with the growth and coloration my corals achieved, till about 3 months ago. I bought a deep water acro which I put through a 2 week quarantine and iodine dip before I introduced it to my display tank. It seemed to be doing well for a a couple of weeks but then it started to necrose in the same manner that you described. I first noted it late at night and by the next morning only the tips were left. I tried to save a few frags, but I was not succesful. Over the next month or so, this "disease" hit one colony after the other, surprizingly affecting my oldest, largest and hardiest corals first. I lost about 15 colonies to this phenomenon. I tired all the following:
1) Daily 15 % water changes for 2 weeks
2) Incresed the flow to improve the O2 delivery and help wash away excess mucus
3) Daily Idoine dips for affected colonies
4) The addition of concentrated amino acids ( supposidly increases coral immunity)
5) Lowered the tanks temp to 76-78
6) Upgraded the pump on my protein skimmer in rder to boost performance
7) Decreased intensity/duration of photoperiod by putting my three MHs on alternating timers
montrealreef
Member
Hi Kip,
I just went throught the entire thread & I'm so happy to hear that things seem to be improving. I'm not very active in the discussion forums as I really have very little time to spare, But i want to share my experience with you.
I'v been in the reef keeing hobby for 2 years, and have been keeping SPS for roughy 1.5 years. Everything was going great, I was very pleased with the growth and coloration my corals achieved, till about 3 months ago. I bought a deep water acro which I put through a 2 week quarantine and iodine dip before I introduced it to my display tank. It seemed to be doing well for a a couple of weeks but then it started to necrose in the same manner that you described. I first noted it late at night and by the next morning only the tips were left. I tried to save a few frags, but I was not succesful. I also had a mass die off of snails and serpent sea stars overnight. Over the next month or so, this "disease" hit one colony after the other, surprizingly affecting my oldest, largest and hardiest corals first. I lost about 15 colonies to this phenomenon. I tired all the following:
1) Daily 15 % water changes for 4 weeks
2) Incresed the flow to improve the O2 delivery and help wash away excess mucus
3) Daily Idoine dips for affected colonies
4) The addition of concentrated amino acids ( supposidly increases coral immunity)
5) Lowered the tanks temp to 76-78
6) Upgraded the pump on my protein skimmer in order to boost performance
7) Decreased intensity/duration of photoperiod by putting my three MHs on alternating timers
8) switched salt from ocean pure to red sea coral pro
9) measured and remeasured every water parameter available to me (all normal)
10) Siphoned and decreased depth of my sand bed from 3 inches
11) Inspected all affected corals for parasites & found none
12) Stopped feeding live rotifers ( ? contaminant in my cultures)
13) Cleaned my 4 stage R/O DI unit and changed all membranes and filters
I felt helpless. I lost all my favorite colonies that had grown from a size of a golf ball to the size of a volly ball over 1.5 years. Just when I was about ready to dismantel my system, it mysteriously stopped. I have had no recurrence in 3 weeks. Till this day I have no idea what caused it or what made it apparently stop ( knock on wood ).
I have researched this extensively and I cannot find conclusive evidence to support a bacterial pathogen. Borneman describes this in his book on aquarium corals and states that based on his work,the isloation of vibrio species was not consistent in all reported cases.
In my humble oinion ( and extrapolating from my medical background in humans) , it seems reasonable that this " disease" is a menefestation of variuos environmental( temp, light, flow, pH, electrical current, UV radiation, etc..) and nutritional factors that share a final common pathway of weakening the corals immune response and ability to handle by products of metabolism and free radicals resulting from photosynthesis and UV exposure. This is followed ultimately by tissue necrosis and death of the coral. Each of these factors on its own might not be enough to cause RTN but when combined the coral stands no chance. Based on this, I don't think it's safe to assume that any one treatment i.e antibiotics, is a "cure" for this phenomenon. Rather, I think that some or all of the interventions you and others have made are what ultimately ceased the process.
I hope that one day we will have a better understanding of what goes on in our aquariums, but till then, I have nothing but the highest respect for all of you who continue to fight these battles as they arise. It is the efforts of you and all the responsible aquarists that will hopefully help us rebuild the reefs one day.
My two cents worth...
I just went throught the entire thread & I'm so happy to hear that things seem to be improving. I'm not very active in the discussion forums as I really have very little time to spare, But i want to share my experience with you.
I'v been in the reef keeing hobby for 2 years, and have been keeping SPS for roughy 1.5 years. Everything was going great, I was very pleased with the growth and coloration my corals achieved, till about 3 months ago. I bought a deep water acro which I put through a 2 week quarantine and iodine dip before I introduced it to my display tank. It seemed to be doing well for a a couple of weeks but then it started to necrose in the same manner that you described. I first noted it late at night and by the next morning only the tips were left. I tried to save a few frags, but I was not succesful. I also had a mass die off of snails and serpent sea stars overnight. Over the next month or so, this "disease" hit one colony after the other, surprizingly affecting my oldest, largest and hardiest corals first. I lost about 15 colonies to this phenomenon. I tired all the following:
1) Daily 15 % water changes for 4 weeks
2) Incresed the flow to improve the O2 delivery and help wash away excess mucus
3) Daily Idoine dips for affected colonies
4) The addition of concentrated amino acids ( supposidly increases coral immunity)
5) Lowered the tanks temp to 76-78
6) Upgraded the pump on my protein skimmer in order to boost performance
7) Decreased intensity/duration of photoperiod by putting my three MHs on alternating timers
8) switched salt from ocean pure to red sea coral pro
9) measured and remeasured every water parameter available to me (all normal)
10) Siphoned and decreased depth of my sand bed from 3 inches
11) Inspected all affected corals for parasites & found none
12) Stopped feeding live rotifers ( ? contaminant in my cultures)
13) Cleaned my 4 stage R/O DI unit and changed all membranes and filters
I felt helpless. I lost all my favorite colonies that had grown from a size of a golf ball to the size of a volly ball over 1.5 years. Just when I was about ready to dismantel my system, it mysteriously stopped. I have had no recurrence in 3 weeks. Till this day I have no idea what caused it or what made it apparently stop ( knock on wood ).
I have researched this extensively and I cannot find conclusive evidence to support a bacterial pathogen. Borneman describes this in his book on aquarium corals and states that based on his work,the isloation of vibrio species was not consistent in all reported cases.
In my humble oinion ( and extrapolating from my medical background in humans) , it seems reasonable that this " disease" is a menefestation of variuos environmental( temp, light, flow, pH, electrical current, UV radiation, etc..) and nutritional factors that share a final common pathway of weakening the corals immune response and ability to handle by products of metabolism and free radicals resulting from photosynthesis and UV exposure. This is followed ultimately by tissue necrosis and death of the coral. Each of these factors on its own might not be enough to cause RTN but when combined the coral stands no chance. Based on this, I don't think it's safe to assume that any one treatment i.e antibiotics, is a "cure" for this phenomenon. Rather, I think that some or all of the interventions you and others have made are what ultimately ceased the process.
I hope that one day we will have a better understanding of what goes on in our aquariums, but till then, I have nothing but the highest respect for all of you who continue to fight these battles as they arise. It is the efforts of you and all the responsible aquarists that will hopefully help us rebuild the reefs one day.
My two cents worth...
Kip
New member
i currently have some frags from a seperate system (75g with the "rescue acro tips") that are starting to experience this problem.... that system has not undergone any corrective course of action outside of making sure measurable parameters are in-line
these frags went into a doxy bath tonite
these frags went into a doxy bath tonite
gasman059
The OG mad scientist
YUP but certainly ABX dips have been around for a while.<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10078378#post10078378 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by PUGroyale
Excellent point and one that bears repeating
It should be pointed out that a lot of the information in this troubleshooting thread is speculative.
And most importantly the user is "experienced" to have tried all the run of the mill treatments.
Big E
Premium Member
Lowering the temperature is "run of the mill" & the necrosis has mysteriously stopped in the main tank.
I agree with Pug, there is no definative evidence of a pathogen. Dipping the corals is treating the symptom instead of the cause.
I'd be very cautious about dipping new healthy corals in chemicals without a legitmate track record of success.
wentreefgirl
New member
Ya, I wouldnt go dipping as a regime. Especiallly when these are random cases thus far. Although, all are almost identical in situation and symptoms. Personally im thinking that the doxy did work. If it stopped his stn on those particular frags, its more then co-incidence. Because before, they would have continued to shed until dead. But with the doxy they continued to stay whole. Nothing will stop this from happening before. Fragging didnt even help. So I think we have something here. Has anyone tried doxy on the flatworms yet. Just a thought. Or the nudis.
The Saltman
New member
I agree, with so many unknowns in the world of reefkeeping, you have to go with what works. We are not scientists by any means, but we all share the common interest of maintaining a thriving reef aquarium and share knowledge with each other to achieve this goal. There obviously isn't enough study in this problem that we are discussing to really point an exact finger on the cause, so we are left to speculate by our own observations. With this in mind, I will go with something that is working if it means saving my reef with the current info I have in hand.
Kip
New member
resistance... wouldnt that need the same bio-mass of bacteria to be subject to the treatment repeatedly? or for a bio-mass to survive the treatment and then develop genetic code of resistance passed to its next generation?
if a pre-bath is totally eradicating this before it hits the display, then there is no viable "generation" of bacteria left to pass resistance along?
i deal with resistance all of the time in my job and the only way that it works is if the active agent doesnt wipe out 100% of the population at any given time.
does the bath wipe out 100% of the population?... beyond me
if a pre-bath is totally eradicating this before it hits the display, then there is no viable "generation" of bacteria left to pass resistance along?
i deal with resistance all of the time in my job and the only way that it works is if the active agent doesnt wipe out 100% of the population at any given time.
does the bath wipe out 100% of the population?... beyond me
Kip
New member
just for a little fun and to add some light hearted views to such a serious thread ....
...what i learned when i was pre-med at unc ....
...you show me one paper that says one thing about a subject, and given time... i will show you another paper with a completely different opinion.... and they both will be right
...what i learned when i was pre-med at unc ....
...you show me one paper that says one thing about a subject, and given time... i will show you another paper with a completely different opinion.... and they both will be right
