Possible Pathogen Based Acro Necrosis

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9993459#post9993459 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by speedstar
Also could the dr explain the difference in it to tetracycline?

Thanks

Tetracyclines are a group of broad-spectrum antibiotics
Examples of tetracyclines

* Naturally-occurring
o Tetracycline
o Chlortetracycline
o Oxytetracycline
o Demeclocycline
* Semi-synthetic
o Doxycycline
o Lymecycline
o Meclocycline
o Methacycline
o Minocycline
o Rolitetracycline

 

[bluetmax]

Kip, I really do not have anything new that I can throw out there in terms of what is happening, but as far as getting the antibiotics go - I had the same problem getting Interceptor. I just finally went down through the yellow pages in all of the surrounding towns, and everyone I called I told them exactly what was going on. I finally found a vet that gave it to me with really no questions asked. Maybe you could do the same for the antibiotics. I hope everything works out for you. I am following this thread closely and hope you resolve the problem.

 

[Serioussnaps]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9993914#post9993914 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jay24k
I don't think a UV would kill it unless it travels through it. Good chance it probably won't get them all.

I would look at commonalities between both tanks and there should be your answer.

So far I have seen two things.

Vendors and Kalk. You stated RO and Salt are completely different. You also have a CA reactor so that rules that out.

I would almost wonder if you have a bad batch of kalk or maybe something was introduced that isn't healthy for corals but fine for human consumption.

I would personally immediately stop the kalk and give it a week to see any changes. I would also maybe try to replace all RO/DI filters as well.

Good luck man. Let me know when you suceed at this and maybe I can toss a few back your way.

I was thinking impurities in the Ms. wages lime as well when I was reading at work, but didnt have time to post and wanted to think it through before I hurredly posted in Kip's thread.

 

[jay24k]

Is it illegal for someone else to get it and ship it to someone? I know my vet pretty well and she will get me anything. I still explain what it is for but she trusts me pretty well. If you know exactly what you need, I can ask her for a prescription and then buy it through them or see if I can get it at petmeds.com

 

[Serioussnaps]

Also, the source water is another idea too. Salsibury...hog farm dumping...I could go into a conspiracy theory here.

 

[Kip]

i think i have a source for the doxycycline... its just a matter of being able to get in touch with him

he is (was a reefkeeper)... and he is a physician... and he is semi-local

 

[Kip]

shipping meds.... evidently shipping meds intrastate w/o proper Rx is a no-no

 

[Serioussnaps]

You said ESV in one post and wages in another. Also, do you think it is to the point where doing so much may make it worse...have you already done the wait and see thing to let everything become stable from all the changes? I am very queezy of you putting meds into your system at this point(at least your display..maybe QT all your peices if possible?)...but you are far more experienced than I.

 

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9996045#post9996045 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
shipping meds.... evidently shipping meds intrastate w/o proper Rx is a no-no

Hey Kip i did a little more research and it seems to be a %50/50 type of scenario. I spoke to the post office and the smarty pants there stated-" i send to my mom all the time her diabetes pills"
on the other hand spoke to a couple of colleagues and they all stated it could theoretically cause some problems. Anyways hopefully u get a hold of some sooner than later-u know my# so if no go over the next couple of days call me again and I'll figure something out.

 

[Kip]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9996111#post9996111 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
You said ESV in one post and wages in another. Also, do you think it is to the point where doing so much may make it worse...have you already done the wait and see thing to let everything become stable from all the changes? I am very queezy of you putting meds into your system at this point(at least your display..maybe QT all your peices if possible?)...but you are far more experienced than I.

yes... ESV on the home system and wages on the work system

what makes this thread complicated is i am speaking of several different systems

yes... i have just let nature take its course and the problem persists

 

[Kip]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9996152#post9996152 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gasman059
Hey Kip i did a little more research and it seems to be a %50/50 type of scenario. I spoke to the post office and the smarty pants there stated-" i send to my mom all the time her diabetes pills"
on the other hand spoke to a couple of colleagues and they all stated it could theoretically cause some problems. Anyways hopefully u get a hold of some sooner than later-u know my# so if no go over the next couple of days call me again and I'll figure something out.

i appreciate your help

in your opinion will any of those tetracyclines do or does it specifically need to be doxycycline?

 

[Fraggle Rock2]

Any chance your local water supply started using chloramine? I don't think all RO units take this out since they sell "special" units for this. Could be wrong though.

I also recall reading something about "bad" Ca reactor media. Not sure what was bad about it, but just a thought.

With your UV/O3 you'd think any waterborne pathogen would be killed. However, perhaps it's just killing most of it and that is the reason it is taking so long to spread? I have not used either of these but can you safely dial them up?

One think I find odd about these types of problems is that it starts at the base of the coral. I don't see the advantage that offers to a bacterial or viral infection. Less flow perhaps?

Best of luck.

 

[the_anti_honda]

You have PM

 

[the_anti_honda]

This is one thing that concerned me with Tetracycline

DRUG INTERACTIONS: It is recommended that tetracycline not be taken at the same time as aluminum-, magnesium-, or calcium- based antacids, such as Mylanta, Maalox, Tums, or Rolaids since, like food, these compounds bind tetracycline in the intestine. Similarly, tetracycline should not be taken with minerals (such as calcium or iron), with bismuth subsalicylate (Pepto-Bismol) or with dairy products.

Not sure if this will have anything to do with biding in the aquarium with Ca and Mg. It could be a good thing or a bad thing.

And with Doxycycline when a human consumes it their skin becomes photosensitive. I don't know if the same side affect is in corals as well but if it is it might not be a bad idea to reduce the photo period during treatment or use egg crate to shade them.

 

[the_anti_honda]

I believe Doxycycline is used in animals in the wild to dye bone growth so I assume it should be attracted to the new growth on the coral or the most Ca consuming animals in the aquarium. ie the corals..

 

[Kip]

if/when i acquire the doxy.... i will treat in a hospital tank... i wont put this in my display

about chloramine... my RO unit has two carbons in the filter array that is supposed to pull choloramine

my UV is running with super low flow thru it... i am a dose well higher than the 90k umol/cm that is required to kill anything that passes thru it

o3... i can dial it up, but i am running it low dose on purpose (pretty much came to this decision based on randy's articles)

base of the coral... yeah, borneman wrote that if it was bacterial that the problems should happen starting pretty much anywhere on the coral and not just the base.... i dunno.. .maybe the pathogen has to enter from the rock/substrate connection

on that note... in calfo's prop book.. he shows hanging frags from strings for equal growth of all sides.... i am wondering what would happen if i put a fresh cut frag in the system suspended in the water column by a string?

 

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9996210#post9996210 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
i appreciate your help

in your opinion will any of those tetracyclines do or does it specifically need to be doxycycline?

any should do-but doxy its one of the most common-and known as well as used over the years.

 

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9997168#post9997168 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by the_anti_honda
This is one thing that concerned me with Tetracycline

DRUG INTERACTIONS: It is recommended that tetracycline not be taken at the same time as aluminum-, magnesium-, or calcium- based antacids, such as Mylanta, Maalox, Tums, or Rolaids since, like food, these compounds bind tetracycline in the intestine. Similarly, tetracycline should not be taken with minerals (such as calcium or iron), with bismuth subsalicylate (Pepto-Bismol) or with dairy products.

Not sure if this will have anything to do with biding in the aquarium with Ca and Mg. It could be a good thing or a bad thing.

And with Doxycycline when a human consumes it their skin becomes photosensitive. I don't know if the same side affect is in corals as well but if it is it might not be a bad idea to reduce the photo period during treatment or use egg crate to shade them.

Anti-rx is in hospital yank-NO LIGHTS!
As far as the interactions-I believe KIp's problem is as close to disaster as possible from our conversation so lacking any other answers why not.

Hospital tank-no lights-12-24 hrs bath apparently JBNY treate some of his acros that way to.

 

[Big E]

Imo, you're treating the symptom instead of the cause by using meds on the acros. I guess treating could stop the STN, but you still have a problem in your system.

I'm not buying the pathegon theory.........something is out of wack chemically or biologically that isn't readable on a test kit.

I'd pick ONE salt brand & flush your system with multiple water changes for the next ten days.

Every time you add/change something you're exasperating the problem causing more instability.......even if the changes are for the good( uv, ozone,carbon). Has the system had a chance to stabilize before you added or changed something else?


Occums Razor---This is often paraphrased as "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest hypothetical entities

I'd get back to keeping it simple & the basics. Give all the chemical & mechanical add ons a rest.

 

[Kip]

how long is long enough to stablize? 1mo, 2mo, 6mo?

if it were a system wide parameter problem, then why not affect all of the acros at once? why only acros?

not countering what you said... just probing for more info

thanks for your suggestions