Possible Pathogen Based Acro Necrosis

[JB NY]

Kip I wish we were able to find some common theme for the two tanks that could be causing this to happen. But that doesn't seem likely.

If you go the treatment route I would recommend doxycycline over the other meds. Only because I know of others who have used it with good results.

Also, I think you would be ok with dosing in the main tank if you decided to go that route. Although I have not personally done this, I know it was done on a large 700+ gallon system where the corals were all starting to RT, close to 150 of them. It did stop the problems and did not kill off anything that I can remember. I spoke to the person about a week after they dosed. This was about 4 years ago.

Just remember the tank will get really yellow after the treatment, so use carbon, skimming, and water changes after to get the stuff out of the water.

That said, I would rather do it in a QT tank. But if you think your whole tank might go belly up, you might as well dose the whole thing.

 

[Big E]

I would think at least 30-45 days between each change for the bacteria to adjust it's population levels to the new environment.

I would guess each coral species has a hardiness level. Some more tolerant than others of unstable or unacceptable conditions.
I know I've never had all my acros look bad at the same time.

The idea of simplifying things is to reduce the variables that may be affecting your tank. There shouldn't be any reason why you can't run a skimmer, water changes & a reactor for months with success.

One other observation I have seen..........in just about every system I've seen/read that has severe unexplainable die off is heavily stocked with livestock.....coral, fish or both. I don't know if your sytem is as heavily stocked as the TOTM back in Sept., but maybe it has reached a maximum level where the system can't sustain everythng.

Those packed systems are running on a razors edge imo.

 

[Big E]

Kip I wish we were able to find some common theme for the two tanks that could be causing this to happen. But that doesn't seem likely.

Two seperate systems.........two seperate issues. One doesn't have to be related to the other.

 

[glassbox-design]

Seeing these pics and reading the symptoms made me think of the seachem reefsalt problem from the borate alk readings. My corals looked very simmilar to that when I had that problem.

Does the red sea have elevated levels of borate that could throwing your tests off? i'd try getting your hands on a borate test...

eric

 

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9997759#post9997759 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JB NY
Kip I wish we were able to find some common theme for the two tanks that could be causing this to happen. But that doesn't seem likely.

If you go the treatment route I would recommend doxycycline over the other meds. Only because I know of others who have used it with good results.

Also, I think you would be ok with dosing in the main tank if you decided to go that route. Although I have not personally done this, I know it was done on a large 700+ gallon system where the corals were all starting to RT, close to 150 of them. It did stop the problems and did not kill off anything that I can remember. I spoke to the person about a week after they dosed. This was about 4 years ago.

Just remember the tank will get really yellow after the treatment, so use carbon, skimming, and water changes after to get the stuff out of the water.

That said, I would rather do it in a QT tank. But if you think your whole tank might go belly up, you might as well dose the whole thing.

yup !

 

[Kip]

Thanks guys

Joe... yeah... i think i will try to isolate and treat an affected acro by itself to directly monitor the results. I am not to the point of "belly up"... there are still about 16-18 acros in the tank and only 1 colony is showing problems at the moment (which goes back to "why is this problem only picking them off one by one"

Ed... i think i have been thru a stablizing period you speak of, but nothing change... so i started doing things again and hence this thread. The coral population was greatly reduced right after TOTM sept 06. I re'scaped the tank, sold colonies, kept a few, and introduced new frags i wanted to grow out. The system did well up until around Feb when i had my first frag (which was new from an online vendor) slowly necrose in my frag tank. Seemingly the problem spread from there, but i cant say exactly.

you can compare FTS from TOTM from a shot Feb 07 to see the difference.... here is the Feb 07 shot

 

[Kip]

Flint et al .... the borate thing... interesting... i will have to order a kit in

 

[Kip]

again... to all .... thanks for taking the time to read through this (now) long thread and offering your suggestions.

I really appreciate it.

 

[Kip]

in the picture... the green desalwii to the left of the pink stylo, the light grn noblis stag to the right of the overflow box, the teal green elseyi stag to the left of the overflow box, and the tubs horrida at the nose of the desjard are all gone from this necrosis/degradation

the cali blue tort (left in the tank shot) is the most recent to start its demise and its affliction is featured in the pics in that link to my board (which i apologize for those that have to register to see it).... if i get a minute at work here i will look thru those board settings and try to work that out

 

[Kip]

ok.. i figured out how to let guest view attached pics... you can see the pics mentioned herein at the following link.... http://www.kipsreef.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5770#post5770

 

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9998359#post9998359 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Kip
ok.. i figured out how to let guest view attached pics... you can see the pics mentioned herein at the following link.... http://www.kipsreef.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5770#post5770

Hey Kip heartbreaking man!
ABX dip try it- BTW I spoke to my buddy Roger he will be chiming in soon, he has done some abx treatments in the past with success.

 

[the_anti_honda]

Borate is a PITA when added in higher doses then needed into salt mixes. I know it will throw off a lot of test kits into thinking the Alk is higher then it is. Borate is B(OH)4 and should be directly realated to the amount of Boron (B) in the aquarium water. I believe naturally it is in sea water at the concentration of 4.4mg/L. So if you are over this level I would assume its whacking out your buffering capacity of Alk and Ca and giving you a false reading. Check that quickly as well as mentioned above.

 

[PUGroyale]

Some more info on elevated Borate alkalinity levels... damage it causes and turnaround with salt change. Sincerely hope you get this figured out Kip

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=927803&perpage=25&pagenumber=3

 

[Kip]

so... salifert boron test.... i will have to order.. nobody local/semi-local carries it

 

[Serioussnaps]

Despite the ridiculous amount of knowledge and experience of JBNY...I think dosing your system with a med is a BAD idea. As BAD as it gets. I think it will just be the straw that breaks the camel's back so to speak. No offense Joe....I really dont have the knowledge/background on this kind of thing or evidence/literature to back it up, but I am basically saying what Big E is saying.

Kip have you tryed moving corals that are unaffected and affected as well to somone elses tank to see if they shape up? If they took a turn for the better in another system then you would be that much closer to solving your problem.

 

[JB NY]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9999236#post9999236 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
No offense Joe

None taken. I would not recommend that one doses their aquarium normally. I've had many problems in my tank over the years, and I've never dosed the whole aquarium. I've only used doxy a few times, only as a last resort for corals I really felt were going to RTN on me pretty fast if something drastic was not done.

My only reason for posting that information is that kip seemed to be going down that route anyway, and was looking for information. If he is already planning on doing it, IMO, I might as well give him as much information as I can about my experience with it so that he has some understanding of what to expect.

Big E recommendation of daily water changes is one of the first things I do every time I have a major problem in my tank and it has always done well for me. I have recommended it to many people as well. So I agree that is a good course of action.

I would rather see kip have an understanding of all his options so he can make an informed choice is all.

 

[St.james of reefdom]

Kip,
FWIW, I had a problem that was similar to this, I think it was bacterial , my remedy was to use melafix, I dipped the coral at 3/4 strength and themn added it to the tank as well per directions on the side of the bottle. After 2 days of this treatment I added PIMAFIX to the tank as well. So I had both of the natural meds working. TURN OFF the protien skimmer while you are treating the tank it will drive it nuts. You will have a smell somewhat of Vicks Vapor rub while you treat the tank.
After the recommended time I think it was 2 weeks I started 25 percent water changes and turned the skimmer back on. I have had no deterioration of the coral tissues since.

 

[Kip]

thanks for the replies

i've been in touch w/ one of my coral vendors to find they've had no trouble with anything similar to this... they contacted me after reading this thread.

i've also been advised to give tyree a buzz since he went thru the great acro necrosis events of the 90s

it seems i will also be trying to run my tank RDP and dropping the temp in the chiller (has to be done RDP.. if i do this during the day the chiller will either blow up or i will run outta money to pay the ISP bill and wont even be able to post) .... seems as if the target temp is less than 77*F... i think someone mentioned this in the thread and this is what paletta suggests as well

in the meantime... still trying to nail down some meds

 

[gasman059]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9999236#post9999236 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Serioussnaps
Despite the ridiculous amount of knowledge and experience of JBNY...I think dosing your system with a med is a BAD idea. As BAD as it gets. I think it will just be the straw that breaks the camel's back so to speak. No offense Joe....I really dont have the knowledge/background on this kind of thing or evidence/literature to back it up, but I am basically saying what Big E is saying.

Kip have you tryed moving corals that are unaffected and affected as well to somone elses tank to see if they shape up? If they took a turn for the better in another system then you would be that much closer to solving your problem.

Well the suggestion of Doxy as a last resort i think is a valid one IMHO-yes I will def treat out of display.
Serioussnaps its not about when but how. Many experience reefers have done this-I've contacted them and hopefully they will be chiming in this thread sooner than later. Anyways its all about having some options besides the usual and customary that I'm pretty sure Kip has considered and done by now.
JBNY thanks for the dosing.

 

[Kip]

little pigeon is en route with a package... so i should be able to do the treatment experiment by the end of the week or early next week