Prazipro and Copper

[ilikefish34]

I've seen several examples of using both at the same time during QT but I have a couple of questions. Fish are a Yellow Tang and two Royal Grammas in a 40 gallon with HOB filter, power head, and air stone. Fish have been observed for five days now with everybody eating well and one Royal Gramma scratching itself.

Since I'll be ramping up the Copper over 2-3 days, should I:

Wait until Copper as at the desired levels (3.5-4.0) before adding Prazi?

Add the Prazi first?

Add them both at the same time?

Other?

On related note, what is the desired salinity that you prefer during this process before being moved onto the DT?

Thanks
Mike

 

[ThRoewer]

1. why do you want to use copper? It is only effective against ich and against that we have less harmful treatments (TTM, hyposalinity).

2. why ramping up? Do you want to give the parasites the time to get used to the copper?

 

[ilikefish34]

1. Why? I may not need to. The idea would be for treating against the possibility of ich for the Gramma scratching itself--it could certainly be symptom of something else like flukes which is part of the reason for the prazi.

Currently, the QT is being kept hypo--the last part of my questionnaire was referring to this (although I see that I left out needed specificity)--can fish be kept in hypo while being treated (prazi) or does that add to their stress greater than that of the copper? If they can, then will not raise the salinity and just use the prazi. If they cannot, I'll raise the salinity along with the copper.

For ich, I would prefer the TTM above all else but I lack the extra tank needed and with my 210 DT and 50 breeder for invert QT, there's no way my wife is going to allow a second QT tank for fish but being that she only wanted a 75 DT and nothing more from the beginning, I'm feeling pretty good about how things are looking.

2. Why? According to Snorvich's sticky on ich, the recommendation is the raising of copper levels slowly or the span of 2-3 days.

 

[ThRoewer]

Why so many fish at once?

You could use a smaller plastic tank or container that is hanged into the bigger QT to shuffle the fish in batches through TTM, first the grammas then the tang.
Copper as a prophylaxis is just madness and may cause more issues than it solves.

Also some of Snorvich's older stickies are a bit outdated by now.

And who is asking the wife for permission to set up a QT? If it's needed it gets done. It's temporary anyway.

 

[ilikefish34]

I thought that your previous question about, "do you want to give the parasites the time to get used to the copper" was tongue and cheek sarcasm... but couple that with the comment about permission from my wife and it seems more like pretentiousness sarcasm. If I am incorrect, please say so--sometimes the tone get lost in 12pt font.

I don't see this as too many fish--two Royal Grammas that are both less than 2" and a 2.5" Yellow tang in a 40 breeder--plenty of bio--it was cycled with 5 damsels (I used a few of egg-crate dividers and, of course, they have been removed) and was stable for three months after everything leveled off--just small water changes as nitrate increased.

I'm not familiar with using a container within the QT for TTM...

The copper is not being used prophylactically--these fish, as described, has shown symptoms. Even if so, "madness" seems a bit off-based for someone looking for advice from those with more experience in the field--yes, I understand that it can cause issues, hence me asking if it would be better to go with the hypo and prazi without the copper... and the fish at are to be treated are, unlike angels, lions and many others, not particularly touchy with copper but, as I stated, I would prefer to not use copper if it is safe to use the prazi in conduction with hyposalinity.

Thanks
Mike

 

[ThRoewer]

No, the QT thing is what I do. It is way easier to justify an existing situation than asking for permission when you kind of already know that there won't be excitement about it. Right now I have 4 QTs and a bin with cycling live rock - in the living room no less!
Not talking about the construction site my new tank is there.

The problem with copper is that it is very harsh on the fish and that it lowers their immune response to other diseases. Also copper is really only effective against ich, and maybe velvet. If your fish have something else (brook, uronema, bacterial infections,...) you may actually promote that disease.

Some strains of velvet have shown the ability to adapt to copper, especially if the dose is slowly ramped up. Some velvet strains can actually tolerate higher copper levels than the fish.

On top of that the therapeutic range is very small between ineffective and harming the fish.
Scratching is a pretty universal symptom which applies to many conditions, including bacterial infections

Too many fish is when you can't do what you should do. I've done that myself before when buying fish at a wholesaler (hey, you can't drive 3 hours to the largest importer of Europe and then just buy one fish) and some of the fish paid for it.

The tank inside a tank system is quite easy. Go to Wal-Mart or a similar place and get a few clear plastic storage bins that will fit into your quarantine tank (one at a time). This way you only need an airstone in the container which makes sterilizing equipment during TTM easy or even unnecessary if you have 4 bins and airstones.
The other TTM option are 5 gallon/20 liter buckets - those will easily fit inside a 40B and still leave enough swim room for the other fish there waiting for their turn.
I prefer clear container as it allows me to check on the fish easier.

TTM also allows you to do formalin dips between tanks to cleat the fish of possible velvet, brook or uronema infections. The time in the tank can be used for deworming with prazi.

You could easily do first the grammas and then the tang.

IMO copper is a relict from the past that should be retired for good. These days we have much better things available.

 

[snorvich]

Also some of Snorvich's older stickies are a bit outdated by now.

In your opinion. What is best practice for you is not necessarily practical for many people on the board. While I advocate TTM for ich, and CP for velvet, the fact remains that many/most suppliers of fish run a low level of copper in their systems. If people choose to use copper (I do not recommend it) ramping up copper to therapeutic dose is best practice for many fish.

And who is asking the wife for permission to set up a QT? If it's needed it gets done. It's temporary anyway.

While I drive two cars that are German Engineered (Mercedes), that is not practical for everyone. While ThRoewer's advice is often good, the reality for people on the board is that they do need to ask their significant other for permission or approval. And sometimes the advice ThRoewer provides is not going to be practical for every aquarist either because of finances, time to implement, or cost.

Providing condescending answers to questions adds no value to helping people with their issues.

 

[ThRoewer]

...(I do not recommend it)...

That is what I meant with "outdated", because these days you don't recommend it anymore.

The ramping up, while gentler on the fish may give some parasites (Amyloodinium) the opportunity to adapt, if not already copper tolerant due to exposure to it in the LFS system.

Another point is that flashing alone is not a sure diagnosis for Cryptocaryon but only an indicator for some form of skin irritation. If it isn't Cryptocaryon, copper may actually make it worse.

As for the space and practicality argument:
A 40B takes the same (actually more) space than three or four 10 gallon tanks which would give more flexibility in treatment. I would even consider stacking a 10 gallon on top of the 40B for TTM if real estate is an issue. And unless the yellow tang is large, a 10 gallon tank for him alone should work for TTM. For grammas anyway.
The other option would be the tank-in-tank method.
So I don't think space is really a fundamental issue here.

I'm simply getting tired of people still propagating copper as the cure it all and easy "medicine". It is outright harmful to fish and very limited in it's effectiveness. If it was a human medicine the FDA would likely have pulled it off the market quite a while ago.

 

[suta4242]

As someone who has spent a lot of time quarantining / treating fish over the years (& currently running a QT), I'd like to share some thoughts with the OP.

I use different methods to prophylactically treat MI depending on the species, whether its direct from a local collector or imported (along with an even greater diversity of parasites). I aim for very high water quality including very low nutrient levels, and this helps with minimising secondary infections due to treatment and stress, IME.

I use cupramine for most freshly caught local fish direct from collectors as they haven't been exposed to copper in all its incarnations for long periods of time. I don't like to ramp up, but agree it's easier on sensitive fish (and on their parasites, too!!). I use TTM for most sensitive fish, but have found that a fortnight is often inadequate. This is where having very few fish in a qt simultaneously is handy - it's easier to maintain high water quality, plus you're only dealing with one source of parasites. Don't mix fish from different sources in quarantine as you just end up dealing with more parasites and possibly infecting a fish that was previously pretty clean.

there are a lot of gray areas in successful outcomes. I am having less success with prazipro now for flukes, especially with imported fish. :facepalm: Formalin is effacious, but not for everything... Fresh water baths are effective, but again, not for everything. Finally each species and individual fish has a tipping point; a stage where it becomes the swimming dead. Even an otherwise hardy species can reach that point if it's been poorly handled through the chain of custody and especially once it's picked up a wide range of parasites along the way.

So your best bet is to be familiar with the species and it's likely intolerances, and the likelihood it's picked up additional parasites on its travels. Pick a proven treatment method, and do your best to carry it out properly. Finally, don't forget the six week observation period at the end. :beer:

HTH and GL
:wave:

 

[thecoralreefer]

I have used both copper and prazi with great success too.
I put this in a at and leave them for a week
The prazi is continued for ttomore week at least.
I have found that most wholesalers
Do NOT medicate. If you find a retailer that does at all it with things like melafix and the like.
These for me have Proven ineffective.
I also acclimate from a hyposaline
Like .017 and evaporate up from there.
This helps due to the bags these guys have shipped in from Indonesia
Suppliers do this when shipping.
Together this upped my suvivalrates to over 80%
And this was in a wholesale level
For what its worth

 

[scooter31707]

I do not use cooper. It is too dangerous to the fish.