Preventing Old Tank Syndrome

[Nano sapiens]

From what I have witnessed, there are two parts to the detritus build-up problem.

One is the lack of flow in the substrate and LR, thus inhibiting the various reducing bacteria from performing at their best (or worse, dying off). The aquarist will notice this phenomena when the Nitrate climbs and stays at a higher level, even with regular WCs.

The other is the buildup of noxious substances within the SB/LR. When I started to vacuum small sections of my SB I had nasty blooms of cyano/dino/diatoms. I kept at the vacuuming/cleaning anyway, and when done, the blooms disappeared. Obviously, whatever had accumulated was 'yum-yum' for the nuisance algae.

 

[srusso]

Paul, random thought... When was the last time you added something store bought into your tank? Are you still buying corals here and there? Or are you just maintaining what you have?

 

[Paul B]

When was the last time you added something store bought into your tank?

Those three cardinals in the last photo I added last week, I also added a 4" pipe organ coral at the same time. About a month ago I added a long nose hawkfish and that long spined urchin in the picture with the cardinals, sometimes I give away fish if they get to large. I do add stuff from stores.
Why? What are your thoughts on that?

 

[OKDOHK]

Well you called out the lurkers, and me being one of them on his thread, i thought i should make a statement and even ask a dumb question. I love seeing threads like this, that challenges common practice. This makes for interesting reading. Also, i was wondering why the glass bottle in the tank? I have observe a tank here or there that had such items and always wondered why. For looks or for something else?

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Long spine urchins are some of my favorites. I can see where they were the night before because the entire surface of the rock is scraped, opening up new pores. They do seem to create a lot of detritus though...

I figured I would mention that I also diatom my tanks a few times a year. Strangely enough, one of my tanks doesn't really produce any detritus, despite being the tank with more fish. The tank is doing decent, so I don't bother it much.

One thing that always gets me is when people say that they can't put a damsel (or whatever else) in their tank because they would never be able to get it out without tearing down the tank. Really? What's the big deal? I tear down my tank every couple of months. I have yet to find a coral that cared if it was out of water for an hour or so. I actually like tearing down my tank, it gives me something to do rather than just sit and watch the coral grow, which is a bit less eventful than watching the grass grow.

 

[nbgen12]

Got a question for you Paul:

So, on my tank I want with a shallow sand bed less than 1" in my DT, and about 1 - 1.5" in my fuge and both of them are VERY fine grained sand. If I were to vacuum stuff up after typhooning the tank, I would probably be taking a lot of sand with it. Should I just go ahead and buy some sand which is a larger particle size to replace the sand which gets pulled out with the detritus? I guess this is the only problem with having a nice, fine white sand...

Joe, I think no one wants to tear their tank down because of the damsel only if they went to the trouble of making a nice aquascape and reef epoxied it together which takes quite a bit of time. I know that's what I did and I would definitely hate to have to shred up the rock formation for any reason lol. Took too long to set those rocks in place!

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Got a question for you Paul:

So, on my tank I want with a shallow sand bed less than 1" in my DT, and about 1 - 1.5" in my fuge and both of them are VERY fine grained sand. If I were to vacuum stuff up after typhooning the tank, I would probably be taking a lot of sand with it. Should I just go ahead and buy some sand which is a larger particle size to replace the sand which gets pulled out with the detritus? I guess this is the only problem with having a nice, fine white sand...

Joe, I think no one wants to tear their tank down because of the damsel only if they went to the trouble of making a nice aquascape and reef epoxied it together which takes quite a bit of time. I know that's what I did and I would definitely hate to have to shred up the rock formation for any reason lol. Took too long to set those rocks in place!

I diatom my tank with a sand bed somewhere between sugar and flour sized grains. I don't lose very much sand at all. My procedure is start diatom filter, blow sand with maxi-jet. Repeat. The sand doesn't really work it's way into the diatom filter's intake, it sort of sinks pretty fast, maybe a minute or two. The detritus will float around in suspension for hours though, giving the diatom filter plenty of time to get it.

Don't you get bored of the aquascape after a while and want a new one? I pretty frequently sell rocks off, or remove rocks to treat for aiptasia or whatever. Or if two unfriendly corals grow too close to each other and you need to move them. I think that virtually all husbandry would be made impossible without being able to move rocks. I think a big problem is that a lot of people buy rocks which are too small. I have been guilty of this in the past because they are so much cheaper and easier to sell without coaxing a coral onto another one, but they do make aquascaping take longer and more difficult to balance.

 

[nbgen12]

Where's a good place to get one of these diatom filters? I've never actually seen or heard of one.

When you stir everything up in the tank, do you do this to both the DT and sump/fuge? And do you turn off the return pump when you do it to keep sand from ending up down in the fuge? This is an awesome thread which has info I definitely overlooked on my first tank which obviously had its problems through the learning process

And to answer your question on the scape...I just got my 75g up and running about a month and a half ago and looooove my scape, but again, it's only been a month and a half so we'll see after a year or so.

 

[Joe Pusdesris]

Where's a good place to get one of these diatom filters? I've never actually seen or heard of one.

When you stir everything up in the tank, do you do this to both the DT and sump/fuge? And do you turn off the return pump when you do it to keep sand from ending up down in the fuge? This is an awesome thread which has info I definitely overlooked on my first tank which obviously had its problems through the learning process

And to answer your question on the scape...I just got my 75g up and running about a month and a half ago and looooove my scape, but again, it's only been a month and a half so we'll see after a year or so.

I think they sell them on amazon. A friend gave me mine, and I think he got it from someone he did maintenance for. It is the "XL" model. I don't think Paul has a sump. I have a sump, but I don't think it matters if you do them together or not. I usually keep all the pumps on.


Paul, have you seen this before?
http://diatomfilter.com/products/reverse_flow_undergravel_filter.htm

 

[nbgen12]

One more question for Paul

You talked about grabbing ocean mud and other such stuff from the ocean near where you live which made me think. My family has a place near the Chesapeake bay, but depending on tides and such, the salinity fluctuates within the range of 7 ppt - 17 ppt....I'm going to assume this is not salty enough to make the muddy bottom where our place is located a good place to dig up mud...would I be correct? or am I missing out on a good opportunity?

I'm definitely trying to maintain the most biodiverse tank possible as you had stated about your tank toward the beginning of the post. That was actually something I had decided at the beginning of my cycle, but now I am just trying to figure out the best method to do that. If the chesapeake bay mud is no good(which it may not be because of pollution also, in addition to low salinity) what are some good vendors that would have what I'm looking for?

This is more aimed at paul since he was talking about it, but I would love to hear of anyone else's opinion who does the same as him!

 

[nbgen12]

I think they sell them on amazon. A friend gave me mine, and I think he got it from someone he did maintenance for. It is the "XL" model. I don't think Paul has a sump. I have a sump, but I don't think it matters if you do them together or not. I usually keep all the pumps on.


Paul, have you seen this before?
http://diatomfilter.com/products/reverse_flow_undergravel_filter.htm

Thanks Joe, I think I'm going to have to invest in one shortly.

 

[Da Maui life]

Where's a good place to get one of these diatom filters? I've never actually seen or heard of one.

When you stir everything up in the tank, do you do this to both the DT and sump/fuge? And do you turn off the return pump when you do it to keep sand from ending up down in the fuge? This is an awesome thread which has info I definitely overlooked on my first tank which obviously had its problems through the learning process

And to answer your question on the scape...I just got my 75g up and running about a month and a half ago and looooove my scape, but again, it's only been a month and a half so we'll see after a year or so.

http://www.diatomfilters.com/contents/en-us/p2.html

 

[Big E]

A few comments---

I remember when there were a few so called experts claiming "Old Tank Syndrome" was a problem along with heavy metal build up & on & on...............all myths, & I never gave these theories much thought, because it went against everything that I have experienced over the years.

It was only an issue because they prescribed to the theory of not touching your sand bed, which always seemed ridiculous to me.

The one that really made me laugh was how coralline algae growth, ect. would clog up the rock & make it hold in dangerous elements & metals.
I guess he never heard of a turkey baster.:lol:

I have rock that's over 20 years old never had a nitrate/phosbate problem, but I've always did 10% water changes a week(mostly a bare bottom guy), but when I did have sand, a large plenum in my sump, I vacumed(about 2" deep to suck up dirt) about every 3 months & when I took it down the thing was spotless after 4 years.

If you do it once a year or once a week you gotta get that junk out of your sandbed sometime.

I remember my diamtom filters........loved those things, but the jars would leak & tick me off. I mainly used them in my freshwater days. I never had a need to use them with a bare bottom saltwater Berlln style setup...........which incidently, I still do Berlin style, I have done some carbon(vinegar) dosing over the past 8 months, but mainly not much has changed for me.

For those looking to get a diatom filter.........Magnum cannisters had the filter you could use & it was more user friendly. You want crystal clear water, hit your tank with Vortex carbon with one of those filters.......... it's awesome stuff.

Those things are simple............it would be easy to DIY a daitom filter.........you just need a pleated filter. Lifereef has those cannisters too. You could hard pipe one of those into your plumbing & with the turn of the valve use a portion of return flow to run the diatom filter whenever needed.

 

[Paul B]

Hello Lurkers.
Mud from the Chesepeke is fine, it's actually better than fine. I would use it. I would also get some amphipods there it would add imense biodiversity in your reef as many of those things reproduce in a reef. The place where I collect is a salt water tide pool in the Long Island Sound that is few from a fresh water lake. During high tide the water rises to 8' high with salt water but when the tide goes out it becomes almost a fresh water stream, but it is full of salt water amphipods, blue claw crabs, fiddler crabs etc.
Bacteria seems to have a wide tolerance of salinity. The tidepool is also very polluted but I only take a little mud with just a little water and put it in a dish in my reef. In a couple of days I remove the dish of mud. I also add rocks from there and I can discard them later. You are not going to introduce much pollution as I have always done this with no problem.
I know about that theory of tanks crashing due to metal accumulation. It doesn't seem to happen in my tank and I don't know why it would. Metals come in with rock and in my case with NSW, then they leave with skimming, algae absorbtion and water changes, my corals are fine and some of my water has been in there over forty years, how much metal could be in there and still have thriving corals..

About adding damsels, I did have damsels because they were the only fish available, but I had a fish only because corals were not available. Now to catch a damsel in my tank I would have to use a trap because it is not easy to move rocks that are cemented together with corals. When I do remove corals I have to cut some soft corals in half as they cling to many rocks at once. Green stars cover a lot of area and I have to cut them with a razor blade. Hard corals like acropora are verv delicate and I always break some due to aquascaping. If the tank is new this is not a problem.

If I had a shallow sand bed I would also stir it as much as I could with a diatom or canister filter, it won't harm it and should be done.

Also, i was wondering why the glass bottle in the tank?

Bottles, What bottles?

Just for looks, There are about 9 bottles in there, most of which you can hardly see as they are covered in corals. I picked up most of them SCUBA diving in NY

 

[nbgen12]

Awesome! Next time I'm out I'll have to do a little searching for a tide pool to find these little things. Right at our house is a giant area of mud bottom, so the mud is easy in whatever quantity I want, in addiction to nearby oyster shell bottoms. The amphipods could be more of a challenge. How on earth do you catch those little critters? Just as you scoop up mud from the tide pool, or do you search and capture?

 

[srusso]

Hello Lurkers.
Mud from the Chesepeke is fine, it's actually better than fine. I would use it. I would also get some amphipods there it would add imense biodiversity in your reef as many of those things reproduce in a reef. The place where I collect is a salt water tide pool in the Long Island Sound that is few from a fresh water lake. During high tide the water rises to 8' high with salt water but when the tide goes out it becomes almost a fresh water stream, but it is full of salt water amphipods, blue claw crabs, fiddler crabs etc.
Bacteria seems to have a wide tolerance of salinity. The tidepool is also very polluted but I only take a little mud with just a little water and put it in a dish in my reef. In a couple of days I remove the dish of mud. I also add rocks from there and I can discard them later. You are not going to introduce much pollution as I have always done this with no problem.
I know about that theory of tanks crashing due to metal accumulation. It doesn't seem to happen in my tank and I don't know why it would. Metals come in with rock and in my case with NSW, then they leave with skimming, algae absorbtion and water changes, my corals are fine and some of my water has been in there over forty years, how much metal could be in there and still have thriving corals..

About adding damsels, I did have damsels because they were the only fish available, but I had a fish only because corals were not available. Now to catch a damsel in my tank I would have to use a trap because it is not easy to move rocks that are cemented together with corals. When I do remove corals I have to cut some soft corals in half as they cling to many rocks at once. Green stars cover a lot of area and I have to cut them with a razor blade. Hard corals like acropora are verv delicate and I always break some due to aquascaping. If the tank is new this is not a problem.

If I had a shallow sand bed I would also stir it as much as I could with a diatom or canister filter, it won't harm it and should be done.



Bottles, What bottles?

Just for looks, There are about 9 bottles in there, most of which you can hardly see as they are covered in corals. I picked up most of them SCUBA diving in NY

The bottles are my most favorite thing you have in your tank.

Its odd, never done... basically, just trash... yet, it looks really cool!

You have reached "Picasso" status with keeping aquariums...

EDIT: Correction... its actual trash... LOL

 

[srusso]

Those three cardinals in the last photo I added last week, I also added a 4" pipe organ coral at the same time. About a month ago I added a long nose hawkfish and that long spined urchin in the picture with the cardinals, sometimes I give away fish if they get to large. I do add stuff from stores.
Why? What are your thoughts on that?

I wondered if after 40 years, the urge to buy new fish or corals went away... Lol

 

[Paul B]

How on earth do you catch those little critters?

Go at low tide, pick up a porous looking rock and swish it in a bucket of water.

EDIT: Correction... its actual trash... LOL

Not really, but this may be

 

[srusso]

Go at low tide, pick up a porous looking rock and swish it in a bucket of water.



Not really, but this may be

Nice!

 

[Blayz77]

ive taken an interest in this thread, while i do use a turkey baster to blast the rocks and also blast the sand bed to stir things up, im interested in this diatom filter thingy your talking about.

im familiar with the filter concept itself having a pool growing up it basically used a huge diatom filter. from what i read it said they like to be run constant, but you guys are saying you only do this cleaning once or less a month. do you have these filters plumbed into your systems or just break them out when needed?

also i had a question about your little flower shop jet nozzle lol. what are you attaching this too? the return line of the filter? or are you using a seperate powerhead with this jet nozzle to blast the rocks with?