Prodibio

[Chrisrush]

Thanks Kirsten. I think that I might do that. The reefplus is alright. It is working, but I'm not sure if it is working as well as CV or AAHC.

How much optim did you cut back on? Currently, I'm dosing 3 vials of optim, and 1 vial of digest every 14 days. I was planning on dosing 1.5 vials of booster every week, but I may end up dosing only 1 pending your thoughts.

 

[robthorn]

chris I have been using 1 vial of all 3 in a 265. I added an extra bioptim this sunday and I can see crap in the sand barely. I will go back to 1.

 

[Chrisrush]

Thanks Rob. Are you adding all three every week or just the booster every week?

I think that I'm going to cut back to 1 digest and 2 optims (every 2 weeks) with 1 booster weekly.

 

[kirstenk]

I have 170g net. I was doing 1/3 Digest to Bioptim every two weeks. I am going to 1/1. No booster or other supplements till I see improvement with the cyano.

As far as my supplements I was using Sailfert AA's, Tropic Marin Element K, Pohl's CV and Zeo K.

 

[bosborn1]

I am facinated by this notion that the dark cyano and the Valonia could be infact "fueled" by a clean low nutreint system. I was reading the thread and thinking that it seems that these are the only nusience algae I get these days. Since dosing I have also seen an increase in the amount of aptasia I get. Infact I had to add some more peppermint shrimp to compensate. I wonder how the low nutreint level in the water colum affects aneonme. I can say that my RBTA has increased in size three fold since the dosing began....But then again I have found that RBTA grow fast in my system.

Robthorn, I am in Tampa right now and went for a visit to Finz...I talked to Chris and he mention something about your name. Too bad I wasn't able to run into you. I would have enjoyed picking your brain.

Scott

 

[Chrisrush]

I think that you mean a low nutrient system, not high.

Chris

 

[bosborn1]

Ha Ha I nullified your post.

Scott

 

[robthorn]

borborn1
well my brain isn't much to pick at but pm's work very well here and in the thread here were you will get alot of different opinions and at least one of them will be something you can live with and want to try at least. I don't have all the big words alot of people on here have but I am more than willing to learn and try new things to try and better things. I have been set back alot so I am at least learning what not to do.
I am about 30 minutes from finz if your still in tampa give me a call. I will pm you my number. my tank is still very new so not much to look at yet. I know things will grow I am just trying to get the wow factor.
I am actually adding 1 of each of the 3 every single week. someone we all know does close to this dosing but there is a bunch of mix up on actual dosages with that person so I will leave the name out to prevent more confusion. along with it daily I am adding 6 drops of cv and 2 drops of aahc in the middle of the day. I am at this point in time adding 1ml of polyplabs fuel carbon source. a couple corals might be getting back to normal from my amino overdose. I should say major amino overdose. on any given day I might for the heck of it use the same dosages except with polyplabs reefresh system. they may be the exact same product or there might be something I get from one the other doesn't have. I think I should have just paid the money and got the zeo stuff in the first place but I am cheap and wanted to try and save $20. instead I lost a couple hundred in corals. this is a lesson I have experienced several times in this hobby but I have yet to truely learn by it.

kirsten potassium can help fuel algea so be careful with it. maybe not the zeo or tropic marin stuff but I tried some freshwater stuff and after 4ml for 2 days I had better looking sand than my front yard. it was very green and thick algea were there had not been a single strand the day before. another lesson surely learned. has anyone experienced extra algea growth from adding K products?

 

[robthorn]

oh yeah I meant to say I don't think low nutrient systems feed or fuel or cause cyano. I think it is more efficient than corals in grabbing the food and acids and everything else we are adding after we remove the nutrients. another reason for me to think most of us are overdosing some products.

 

[robthorn]

bosborn clean out your box. sent and received.

 

[glassbox-design]

Hey Meso I'm glad you saw this thread!

Thanks for all the articles you've been posting on the other forum...it's nice to get a decent idea of what is actually going on with some of these products...Some of the articles certainly are over my head...but i feel i have learned a lot from them.

I have a few questions for you though...well actually a lot of questions

You posted a link to the freshwater redfield calculator...do you feel this can be modified and applied to Reef tanks?

If the origional ratio is 106C:16N:1p how will those numbers be changed with an excess carbon source...one study you posted showed the maximum abundance to be as high as 28/29C:1N ?

What are examples of amide-sugars? Is acetate now out of the question due to Nitrite accumulation?....if that is the case what about the other two that were mentioned valerate or caproate?

You mentioned Fe which I agree with...With Zeo is the Fe in the zeolithes...or is it being dosed? If it is being dosed what form would be usable...would simple Kent Fe supplement be suffice?

I could go on but i think that's already too many...any help would be greatly appreciated!



eric&flint

 

[bosborn1]

Box empty

 

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7825221#post7825221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
... Thanks for all the articles you've been posting on the other forum...it's nice to get a decent idea of what is actually going on with some of these products...Some of the articles certainly are over my head ... but i feel i have learned a lot from them. ...

You're quite welcome ... less than a dozen people actually few my typical posts, and it's nice to talk to some of them! Don't worry about the difficulty level ... some of it's pretty heavy reading. I'm a biologist, and I have to re-read them at least twice to be sure that I'm understanding them properly.

Your questions indicate you're doing just fine ... :thumbsup:

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7825221#post7825221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
... You posted a link to the freshwater redfield calculator...do you feel this can be modified and applied to Reef tanks?...

Without knowing the equations and conversions they're using, I'd have to say that there's a possibility for some serious errors.

With the proper modifications, I don't see any reason that it couldn't be applied to reef tanks. If we knew the identity of the carbon source that is being dosed, and were willing to specify an "acceptable error" in terms of "actual" phosphorous concentration, I don't see any reason that such a calculator couldn't be created for reef systems. Since the "Redfield Ratio" is merely a C:N:O ratio, I don't see any conceptual difficulties ... the problem is what kind of percentage error we'd be willing to accept.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7825221#post7825221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
... What are examples of amide-sugars? Is acetate now out of the question due to Nitrite accumulation?....if that is the case what about the other two that were mentioned valerate or caproate? ...

Glucosamine is a good example ... there are a few others which have been applied in marine experimentation. I suggest amino sugars (AKA amide sugars) because they're oftentimes precursors which can be utilized in the synthesis of proteins and lipids ... i.e., more "utility" than either ethyl alcohol or sugars (such as glucose) in certain important metabolic pathways.

But be forewarned ... amino sugars oftentimes naturally occur with a phosphate molecule associated with them (as in the case of glucosamine ... glucosamine-6-phosphate).

Valerate and caproate are both fatty acids. Nutritionally significant ... to be sure ... but they are typically not nearly as powerful as growth substrates in comparison with sugars and amino sugars.

I don't think that some form of acetate is "out" of any manufacturer's equation ...

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7825221#post7825221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric
... You mentioned Fe which I agree with...With Zeo is the Fe in the zeolithes...or is it being dosed? If it is being dosed what form would be usable...would simple Kent Fe supplement be suffice? ...

Sorry ... I don't feel it's appropriate for me to get into ZEOvit stuff here.


On a slightly different tangent ... supplementing Fe into the water column is a tricky thing if you're working with Acroporidae, Pocilloporidae, and their relatives. While you may overcome some Fe limitation in certain strains of bacteria, you may pay a price in terms of an effect on zooxanthellae.


JMO ... HTH

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7821839#post7821839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm


Simon ... I suspect you're going to be pleasantly surprised by what happens with a non-ZEOvit media reactor. The science is the science ... in terms of nutrient export, I see nothing "special" about either ZEObak or ZEOvit media (although I like the mix). Whether or not the presumed clinoptilotile performs some "molecular sieve" function in terms of allelopathic exudates is another issue.


JMO ... HTH

Hey Gary:wavehand:

Encouraging to hear.

Does the last sentance mean that an alternative reactor substrate won't adsorb ammonia? If so, whats your view on the advantages ammonia adsorbtion has over just letting the bacs do the work all the way down the chain?

Cheers

Simon

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7819184#post7819184 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by little_d
If all I wanted to do is to reduce NO3, will dosing Biodigest be sufficient?

IME its the combo of digest and TPIM that will take your NO4 to 0 assuming you have enough anerobic areas for the NO4 consuming bacs to live.

Cheers

Simon

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7823703#post7823703 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by robthorn
has everyone got a valonia problem using prodibio?

Hi Rob

When I used Prodi - I had small pockets of valonia, which have multiplied significantly with zeo basic 4. It maybe just a coincidence, as I did burst a couple of bubbles my accident a while before starting zb4.

The main area of trouble is the wave box housing, rather than the rest of the tank.

Gary - whats' other zeo users's experience with valonia?

Cheers

Simon

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7824700#post7824700 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by robthorn

has anyone experienced extra algea growth from adding K products?

Not IME with the zeo K Ballance - just the valonia mentioned above which may or maynot be related.......... The effect of KB on color and growth has been good. Just wish I had a test kit as dosing by observation is a bit tricky esp for a major element.

I'm visiting Zeo HQ in Coburg the week after next on the way through to the Bavarian Alps, I'll pick one up then. Really looking forward to seeing what Herr Phol can do in the flesh. If anyone has any Q's they want me to ask - let me know.

My wife just happended to pick a campsite down the road not knowing where it was near. She cant beleive it...!!:uzi: :fun2: (thats me in green)

Cheers

Simon:

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7825221#post7825221 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Flint&Eric


You mentioned Fe which I agree with...With Zeo is the Fe in the zeolithes...or is it being dosed? If it is being dosed what form would be usable...would simple Kent Fe supplement be suffice?




eric&flint

Hi Eric

Iron is dosed in the zeo method, and I expect Kent Fe would suffice. Some of the zeolite rocks have a rusty color which may indicate Iron, but the dosage application is through additives.

The issue is how much to dose, and the visual indicators described above are the best we have at the moment. I'd not start dosing iron if there is any detectable levels of NO3/PO4, as iron will fertilise algae in all forms including symbiotic zoals.

Cheers

Simon

 

[mesocosm]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7837363#post7837363 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TryTheChi
... Does the last sentance mean that an alternative reactor substrate won't adsorb ammonia? If so, whats your view on the advantages ammonia adsorbtion has over just letting the bacs do the work all the way down the chain? ...

The line, "Whether or not the presumed clinoptilotile performs some "molecular sieve" function in terms of allelopathic exudates is another issue" means ... zeoliths may have the capacity to "strain" ('molecular sieve') allelopathic toxins from the water column (I'm speculating here ... I have no empirical data to back this up).

Ammonia adsorption is another tangent ... I do not believe that alumino-silicates can perform any sustained absorption and/or adsorption of NH3/NH4 that would quality as "ammonia filtration" ... hence the need to replace the media (and part of the reason why aquaculture/mariculture has rejected zeoliths as economically useful NH3/NH4 removers). Enough "limited" absorption and/or adsorption to make a "difference" in the initial attachment and development of an emergent biofilm? ... me thinks YES ... and this could be significant in terms of the "efficiency" of the resultant biofilm (i.e., it's fundamentally different from the kind of biodiversity and behavior that we infer about the biofilms which are associated with undisturbed live rock) ... but I don"t have the empirical data to back this up.

Given that, I believe that an alumin-silicate could provide a very hospitable microenvironment for the initial colonization of bacteria ... definitely a potentially significant advantage (both in terms of biomass and biodiversity ... hence nutrient export efficiency).

But ... once the biofilm matures, I suspect that the availability of carbon sources, bacterial nutrients, and electon donors in the water column become much more significant than whatever is available in association with the alumino-silicate (... again ... no empirical data ...).


JMO ... HTH

 

[TryTheChi]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7839149#post7839149 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mesocosm


.......significant in terms of the "efficiency" of the resultant biofilm (i.e., it's fundamentally different from the kind of biodiversity and behavior that we infer about the biofilms which are associated with undisturbed live rock) ...

significant advantage (both in terms of biomass and biodiversity ... hence nutrient export efficiency).

Hi Gary - thanks .

Just to check my understanding - zeolites may have an advantage over other media by being an kind of hospitable petri dish, with some impact on the makeup of the mulm?

Is the latter a feature of the chemical makeup of the substrate or the environmental conditions (ie flow rates, daily shaking, a mix or areobic and anerobic areas, and targeted access to top up cultures and carbon, aminos and amonia/nitrite/nitrate/phosphate) the substrate is exposed to?

Thinking about we might expect expect to observe in home captive reefs, if we were looking to verify the hypothesis - we could observe through tests that NO3/PO4 were reduced faster?

What other observational indicators may there be? - water clarity?

Greater coral nutritional value of the bac biomas as seen through growth rates or coloration?

If that is the case, then our feeding strategies for the bac strains become THE focus after ensuring we have the right ballance of strains?


Cheers

Simon