pronunciation
- Thread starter heyfredyourhat
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Amphiprion
Premium Member
Sorry about that. I guess I should have been a bit clearer. Since there are few hard and fast rules that govern pronunciation worldwide (just ask anyone who speaks the Queen's English and you will find the discrepancies I am talking about). At any rate, I like to use latin vowels 93.5% of the time just because it kind of helps get past these discrepancies, at least in our region. My example before was 'ae'. I prefer to use the 'ee' anglicized pronunciation if it is used as a prefix or in the middle of a word (kee-toh-morph-ah). If it is used as a suffix (Pomacentridae--pahm-a-CEN-treh-day), I prefer the 'ay' pronunciation. This isn't because it is necessarily correct (nor, as I said before, are there any rules governing this worldwide)--it just sounds better than pahm-ah-cen-treh-dee, which is just plain annoying to me. If it were true latin, then it would be poh-mah-ken-tree-dye, which sounds worse. I also use 'eye' instead of 'ee,' or 'ee-ee' when pronouncing 'i' or 'ii' as a suffix. Once again, this sort of differentiates latin from nomenclature. While the names themselves are though of as authoratative, the pronunciation is debated, we lean toward the former. Since you didn't really specify which part to explain, I will explain the second part, also. I meant that the scientific nomenclature we use is essentially made up--far from true latin. Some of the words used aren't even latin (example: Artemia nyos [seamonkeys]--nyos=New York Ocean Science laboratories).
Travis, the trouble arises when applying English pronunciation rules to something that isn't English and Latin rules to something that really isn't latin. I just like to strike a compromise between the two, that is all. Either way, you will always come across a person who will tell you that you are pronouncing it incorrectly. You just tell them that they are full of it and keep pronouncing it your own merry way (so long as it follows just basic rules). My recommendation (for clarity's sake) is to use 'ay' for the pronunciation of 'ae' and 'eye' for the pronunciation of 'i.'
Amphiprion
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8398692#post8398692 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
Chaetomorpha would be
      kee-tuh-mor-fuh
most likely to many biologists. It's
      kie-tah-mor-puh
in more classical Latin, with "kie" rhyming with "lie", or
      kay-ta-mor-fuh
in the Catholic church.
I use the second pronunciation most of the time. The first two vowels are always a diphthong, and aren't pronounced separately, in any scheme I've ever seen.
"Caesar" is kie-sir.
Zoanthidae would have the accent on the second syllable, I believe, because the "i" in the third syllable is not long.
Actually, the two vowels are indeed separate. Latin actually pronounces the vowels separately in all circumstances. While we may sort of throw the two together because it sounds that way, that doesn't mean that it really is. The vowels 'ae' are pronounced "ah-ay", but when put together at any sort of speed, sound just 'eye.' But they are separate and distinct. Romans probably would have made this distinction audibly, but it is hard to imagine otherwise unless you have heard it (which no one technically has). Your pronunciation of Caesar sounds like a German kaiser
, not Julius Caesar. The 'ar' at the end would take the 'ahr' pronunciation, since all vowels are long in pronunciation. The h is silent, as you pointed out, in "Chaetomorpha", as found in classical latin. Also, your stress on Zoanthidae is correct--however, if you look at the above, you will see that I actually dissected 'Zoanthidea' (an order), not 'Zoanthidae' (a family). That stress will not be the same in a different word because of the differing number of syllables. Also keep in mind that these words have hideously predictable stresses, where as latin syllables have rather unexpected stresses and accents, further differentiating the two.MyCatsDrool
Premium Member
Here is a good one for you.
For the longest time, I have referred to the lovely, and janitorial Nassarius Snail as the Narsissisus snail.....Kinda like my ex husband.
For the longest time, I have referred to the lovely, and janitorial Nassarius Snail as the Narsissisus snail.....Kinda like my ex husband.
I'll just suggest that a source like "Wheelock's Latin" will go into the various pronunciations of Latin rather well, including the diphthongs. "Kaiser" is directly derived from Caesar, and the "ar" in Caesar is a short a, so it's "sir", same as the English word.
Zoanthidea could have the stress on the "id" or the "e", depending on the length of the vowel.
Zoanthidea could have the stress on the "id" or the "e", depending on the length of the vowel.
heyfredyourhat
Premium Member
not to be rude, but how bout just try to type it like it sounds.
greenbean36191
Premium Member
Biological Latin doesn't follow the pronunciation rules of Classical Latin. It's essentially a made up language, with very few strict rules.
A few general rules:
1. If it's an honorary name for a person or place the name should be pronounced the same way as the original name. Macadamia nuts are actually named after a Dr. MacAdams, so the genus name should technically be pronounced mac-ADAM-ia (though no one really follows the rule in this case).
2. If the name uses words from other languages, the name is pronounced the same the words in their original language.
3. "Ch" almost always makes a hard "k" sound.
4. "-idae" sounds like i-day (same "i" sound as in "pig").
5. "-oidea" sound like oy-dee-uh.
One trick is to learn how to say the common roots. Once you know how to say those, the names that use them are generally pretty close to the roots. If you know that "chaetea" means bristles then you should recognize that Chaetomorpha is derived from that and should be key-toe-morph-uh.
Of course as my professors always told me, learn the basic rules and then just say it how the experts say it. In the event that you have to talk about it and haven't heard an expert say the word, chances are your audience hasn't either. They don't know whether you said it right or not.
A few general rules:
1. If it's an honorary name for a person or place the name should be pronounced the same way as the original name. Macadamia nuts are actually named after a Dr. MacAdams, so the genus name should technically be pronounced mac-ADAM-ia (though no one really follows the rule in this case).
2. If the name uses words from other languages, the name is pronounced the same the words in their original language.
3. "Ch" almost always makes a hard "k" sound.
4. "-idae" sounds like i-day (same "i" sound as in "pig").
5. "-oidea" sound like oy-dee-uh.
One trick is to learn how to say the common roots. Once you know how to say those, the names that use them are generally pretty close to the roots. If you know that "chaetea" means bristles then you should recognize that Chaetomorpha is derived from that and should be key-toe-morph-uh.
Of course as my professors always told me, learn the basic rules and then just say it how the experts say it. In the event that you have to talk about it and haven't heard an expert say the word, chances are your audience hasn't either. They don't know whether you said it right or not.
Amphiprion
Premium Member
I am fully aware that Kaiser is derived from Caesar, as is Czar, and other proclaimed rulers. Yet, they do not take the same sound. Wheelock's is not a preferred source in most cases and won't get you very far outside of vulgar latin. They encounter the same problem when trying to impose our pronunciation on a different language (or other germanic pronunciations on a different language). If you look up in any reputable source, you will find that even the the short 'a' in latin (the unaccented vowel, in the case of Latin) takes a relatively similar sound as a long 'a', though there is a difference. It does not take the short 'ir' or 'er' sound. The diphthongs are just that, but with a distinction. Learned Romans made this distinction as an incredibly subtle difference in pronunciation. The references in many books simplify it in English contexts, not Roman ones, thus not preserving much of the original contexts. Such sounds may have completely blended in vulgar latin, but in preserved 'proper' latin (written by orators and grammarians), the distinction would have been made.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8403957#post8403957 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
Biological Latin doesn't follow the pronunciation rules of Classical Latin. It's essentially a made up language, with very few strict rules.
A few general rules:
1. If it's an honorary name for a person or place the name should be pronounced the same way as the original name. Macadamia nuts are actually named after a Dr. MacAdams, so the genus name should technically be pronounced mac-ADAM-ia (though no one really follows the rule in this case).
2. If the name uses words from other languages, the name is pronounced the same the words in their original language.
3. "Ch" almost always makes a hard "k" sound.
4. "-idae" sounds like i-day (same "i" sound as in "pig").
5. "-oidea" sound like oy-dee-uh.
One trick is to learn how to say the common roots. Once you know how to say those, the names that use them are generally pretty close to the roots. If you know that "chaetea" means bristles then you should recognize that Chaetomorpha is derived from that and should be key-toe-morph-uh.
Of course as my professors always told me, learn the basic rules and then just say it how the experts say it. In the event that you have to talk about it and haven't heard an expert say the word, chances are your audience hasn't either. They don't know whether you said it right or not.
Thank you. Chances are, even the experts themselves don't even know whether or not they have it right or wrong, because there really isn't a right or wrong beyond a few rules. I follow the same general pronunciations for nomenclature that you do and I find that it is easiest adopting a combination of pronunciations.
Travis L. Stevens
Active member
I love this thread! I felt general the same that was explained but couldn't find the words to do it. Thanks Amphi and Greeny.
BTW, Hell froze over! Good to see you GreenBean36191. I missed your face
BTW, Hell froze over! Good to see you GreenBean36191. I missed your face
Shagsbeard
New member
Fun thread. There are different pronunciations of common words, so there are certainly different pronunciations of uncommon ones. The word "the" has at least two. There are different standards depending on the community that uses the language, so insisting that one is correct out of context is wrong. Context is the key, and that context is cultural. I like the "Biological Latin" discussion.
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