proper nutrient levels for SPS

[jlinzmaier]

I use all RO/DI water for water changes and top off.

I do 30 gal water changes each week. Most of my rocks are covered by corals that have attached but I'll see it I can find some rocks that are removable and see if they leech phosphates. sounds like an interesting experiment.

If I find my rock is leaching phosphate then what? A complete curing for all the rock I would imagine, and likely GFO filtration in the curing bin. correct??

I've done some research on amino acid supplements and I found a product by salifert called Bio coral amino acids. Sounds like a good product and I'd like to give it a try. I don't want to be won over simply by good marketing so has anyone used this product or have any feedback about it?

Jeremy

 

[reefsahoy]

in MHO, if you find phosphate leaching then you're looking at time, time and more time, or replacing all rocks that leach phosphate. just keep using gfo in your system and time. the older a tank gets the better it gets. this is one of only a few hobbies that as time passes the hobby gets better and better. you didn't mention how old the tank is.

 

[jlinzmaier]

Tank is about 2yrs old - quite young.

No redbugs. I dipped some corals and didn't find any.

I'm moving soon and the wife has agreed to let me have a custom tank built. I'm making all new DIY rock so I don't think I'll bother much with the rock I have now. I'll just continue running GFO and increase my clean up crew. The rock for the next tank will get a freshwater cure for several months until it stops leaching alk, then I'm going to cure it in saltwater for about 6 mo to establish some good bacterial growth and get it reef ready. I thought I'd introduce some chaeto and a light cycle about 1-2 months into the saltwater cure to pull out any unwanted nutrients the concrete might leech out. Heard that often people get algae blooms on DIY rock so I thought I'd use the chaeto to eat up the nutrients so it doesn't grow on the rock.

Thanks for the info everyone.

Jeremy

 

[volcom69]

If you have a bad case of algae im not so sure you should feed aminos just yet and get rid of all the algea in your tank. I understand that you want better color, but color dosnt happen over night it could take months so i would worry about getting your tank in a low nutrient state before i would worry about colors. I would at least try to get your po4 down to 0.02 or around there with little or no algae at all. Be patient and in time your corals will color up with good husbandry.

 

[jlinzmaier]

Good point Volcom.

Jeremy

 

[stony_corals]

Jeremy,

A couple of things... 1) colors have certain chromoproteins and you can not change that (ie, you can't make a red coral blue). By lowering nutrient levels to near NSW levels, these pigments will show, rather than the brownish zoox (due to higher nutrients, the zoox will increase in density). 2) if you chaeto is still growing well, you may have higher nutrient levels than you believe. i.e. in one system, my NO3 is less than .25 using LaMottes test kit, its above zero though. Chaeto growth has really declined in the past several weeks, its not dying, but its not growing either. 3) Salifert aren't the best test kits when nutrients are low... I'd say switch back to your 250w if you are having issues. More light does not equal better color. In fact, more light may be worse off for the health of your corals. Different corals have different photoinhabition levels, by increasing light (250 to 400), you are making this worse. A shorter photo period also doesn't help with this, in fact its worse... Switch back to 250s if you can

 

[jlinzmaier]

Stoney_corals

I understand that I can't make a coral change colors just because I want it to. My concern is that I buy brightly and deeply colored corals and over time the colors fade out to a bland brown and or begin fading in general. I'm assuming that the browning is likely the zoox mulitiplying inside the coral which covers up the phosflourescing proteins of the corals tissue.

My adventure to discover why the zoox is growing so thick in the corals first led me to the lighting, thus my increase to 400 w halides. That didn't fix the problem but at the moment the corals seem to react well to the light cycle and I don't have the ability to revert back to 250's. Since increasing the light didn't fix the prob my next thougth was the nutrient levels. If there aren't enough available nutrients the zoox will multiply to take advantage of the usable source of energy - the light. That led me to starting this thread to discuss nutrient levels. I'm assuming that my tank has low amounts of usable nutrients for the corals therefore they must get their energy from zoox. I'm assuming that in low nutrient and high lighting conditions the zoox multiply (causing the corals to look brown/bland). This allows the zoox to produce enough usable energy for the corals from the light source since the corals aren't getting enough nutrients elsewhere. I'm under the impression that in tanks with enough available nutrients for the corals, the corals are able to limit zoox growth and/or expell any excess zoox. In these conditions, there are limited amounts of zoox inside the corals tissue thus allowing the corals natural colors and phosflouresence to show.

Please redirect me if I'm off course with this. I don't have any articles or studies to directly refer to back up my thoughts - just my basic understanding of the mutualistic relationship between corals and zooxanthellae.

Jeremy

 

[jlinzmaier]

(due to higher nutrients, the zoox will increase in density).

Zoox don't depend on nutrient levels in the water, they're photosynthetic organisms. They have a mutualistic relationship with corals and depend on light to produce energy for themselves and the coral they're living in. In conditions of extremely high nutrient levels zooxanthellae can pull nutrients from the water however they are primarily photosynthetic.

Jeremy

 

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12534845#post12534845 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jlinzmaier
Zoox don't depend on nutrient levels in the water, they're photosynthetic organisms. They have a mutualistic relationship with corals and depend on light to produce energy for themselves and the coral they're living in. In conditions of extremely high nutrient levels zooxanthellae can pull nutrients from the water however they are primarily photosynthetic.

Jeremy

They don't depend on them correct, but there are numerous scientific data that show that zoox are able to absorb N compounds from the water column, hence the corals brown out. What do you consider extremely high? In most aquaria, nutrients are at least 5x higher than NSW, hence the brown out... This is most likely what is happening in your system, could be an adaptation period too, but it's most likely higher (relative) nutrient levels....

An increased amount of light wouldn't cause the zoox to increase in density.... potentially the opposite.

 

[stony_corals]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12534815#post12534815 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jlinzmaier
Stoney_corals

I understand that I can't make a coral change colors just because I want it to. My concern is that I buy brightly and deeply colored corals and over time the colors fade out to a bland brown and or begin fading in general. I'm assuming that the browning is likely the zoox mulitiplying inside the coral which covers up the phosflourescing proteins of the corals tissue.

My adventure to discover why the zoox is growing so thick in the corals first led me to the lighting, thus my increase to 400 w halides. That didn't fix the problem but at the moment the corals seem to react well to the light cycle and I don't have the ability to revert back to 250's. Since increasing the light didn't fix the prob my next thougth was the nutrient levels. If there aren't enough available nutrients the zoox will multiply to take advantage of the usable source of energy - the light. That led me to starting this thread to discuss nutrient levels. I'm assuming that my tank has low amounts of usable nutrients for the corals therefore they must get their energy from zoox. I'm assuming that in low nutrient and high lighting conditions the zoox multiply (causing the corals to look brown/bland). This allows the zoox to produce enough usable energy for the corals from the light source since the corals aren't getting enough nutrients elsewhere. I'm under the impression that in tanks with enough available nutrients for the corals, the corals are able to limit zoox growth and/or expell any excess zoox. In these conditions, there are limited amounts of zoox inside the corals tissue thus allowing the corals natural colors and phosflouresence to show.

Please redirect me if I'm off course with this. I don't have any articles or studies to directly refer to back up my thoughts - just my basic understanding of the mutualistic relationship between corals and zooxanthellae.

Jeremy

You are mixing things up a bit... no worries... When nutrient levels are higher than normal, the zoox take the 'fertilizer' from the water column and reproduce, hence the browning. Due to potential damage, higher intensity light may cause the coral to expell some zoox, hence a moderate bleaching effect. In NSW nutrient levels, the zoox become nutrient limited. The colors are chromoproteins produced by the coral, not the zoox, but the zoox can hide them... Also the zoox's photosythase is mainly sugars, they need source of N and P to grow/reproduce/produce chromoproteins, etc...

 

[jlinzmaier]

Stoney_corals

An increased amount of light wouldn't cause the zoox to increase in density.... potentially the opposite.

Makes sense. I get it now. Thanks for clarifying.

In most aquaria, nutrients are at least 5x higher than NSW, hence the brown out...

My nitrates read 0 to 0.5 and my phosphate reads undetectable (looking into a photometer to confirm that) - I'm assuming the chaeto, nuisance algae, and zoox are constantly taking it in which gives false low readings on my tests. Therefore, in my situation I likely do have excess nutrients, they're just undetectable as the macros, algae, and zoox are taking it in as soon as it becomes available. Am I on the right track now??

That explains the browning. Is the fading of colors likely related to lack of proper amino acids and/or improper lighting??(I have a few corals that are simply losing color and turning cream colored)


Jeremy

 

[DARKSILENTTYPE]

I have read this whole thread and find the different answers givin very interesting . I have one question what color is the hair algea ?

John

 

[jlinzmaier]

Darksilenttype - John.

Primarily a green hair algae. I can look up the specific species if it's important.

Jeremy

 

[DARKSILENTTYPE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12539234#post12539234 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jlinzmaier
Darksilenttype - John.

Primarily a green hair algae. I can look up the specific species if it's important.

Jeremy

Just wondering if its hard green hair like algea . Primarily ? Does that mean you have more than one kind of hair algea growing?

John

 

[jlinzmaier]

I believe the algae is a bryopsis. The only other algae I can see is bubble algae.

 

[jlinzmaier]

I came home today and sat down in front of my tank and sighed in disgust. The browning corals and algae growth are obvious signs of excess nutrients - I can't believe I would think anything else. I spent 4 hrs researching excess nutrients in reef aquaria and how it affects zoox and coral growth. The simple answer is: I undoubtedly have excess nutrients.

I've done some research on ZEOvit and I think I'm going to try the system. It sounds as if there's quite a bit of polarity among common aquarists regarding the ZEO system. People either think it's the next best thing since sliced bread and others think it's a passing fad that can easily crash your system and kill everything. From the research I've read, the concepts seem quite concrete and it seems that if it's done properly and slowly, the ZEO system can be quite successful. I'm sure there are many posts regarding probiotic nutrient reduction, but can anyone point out any obvious reasons why I shouldn't give it a try??? It's seems a bit expensive, but with the money and time I already have invested in my tank, if it works I'll be happy to pay the price.

Please let me know of any obvious cons to the ZEOvit system!! As I said, I've done some thorough research and I'm optomistic it's a practice that can have positive results for my tank.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Jeremy

 

[volcom69]

There is nothing wrong with zeovit infact i love there products. I dont run a full zeo system i use a bunch of there additives and love them. You just have to remember with zeo to take it slow and keep all your levels at NSW level in order for zeo to really work. There are ways to get your nutrient levels down without doing zeo if you really dont want to, but its all just going to take time. I would first really find out what your po4 really is in your tank, and i would pull what algea you can by hand and see if it stays away or comes back. Not sure if you are running a po4 reactor or kalk or anything like that but that really helps to lower your po4 in the tank. Download the zeo instructions and i think that will help you out alot.

 

[dme330i]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12541060#post12541060 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jlinzmaier
I've done some research on ZEOvit and I think I'm going to try the system. It sounds as if there's quite a bit of polarity among common aquarists regarding the ZEO system. People either think it's the next best thing since sliced bread and others think it's a passing fad that can easily crash your system and kill everything. From the research I've read, the concepts seem quite concrete and it seems that if it's done properly and slowly, the ZEO system can be quite successful. I'm sure there are many posts regarding probiotic nutrient reduction, but can anyone point out any obvious reasons why I shouldn't give it a try??? It's seems a bit expensive, but with the money and time I already have invested in my tank, if it works I'll be happy to pay the price.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Jeremy

This is what I was getting at in my original reply to your thread.

You're doing the right things by reading as much as you can about the concepts. It can be overwhelming at first, but in reality the concepts are really straightforward and make sense.

The foundation of zeo based systems is to provide a carbon source to fuel aerobic and aerobic bacteria. The addition of highly porous media (whether it is the KZ brand, Fauna Marin, or even Matrix) provide add'l surface area for this bacteria to grow. These bacteria do a great job of sequestering N and P (typically outcompeting micro and macro algaes). Moreover, those in the water column are quickly skimmed (especially with your powerful skimmer).

The reason O3, UV and GFO are not recommended is because of their counterproductive effect on the bacteria. As stated the bacteria are a critical component to the success of this method.

Depending on your bioload, nutrient levels, etc. (i.e., not every 100G system is created equal) - will determine how long it takes for you to reach "LN" or "ULN." Without testing, you'll clearly know that you reached this state when the micro's disappear and your corals begin to fade. At this point, AA dosing and feeding play a significant role in growth and coloration. Again, not all systems are created equal, so be prepared to play around with dosages till you hit your sweet spot.

I've oversimplified this - best to read as you have been.

 

[jlinzmaier]

Volcom69

Unfortuantely I've tried all other means of nutrient reduction and it just hasn't yielded the results I'm looking for (hasn't failed - just didn't work to the satisfaction that I'd like). Ultimately, I think my LR has an excess amount of nutrients saturated into it due to my initial poor nutrient management during the first few years in the hobby. I currently have a 40 gal (long and shallow) containter of chaeto on an alternate light cycle from the tank, 200 mg ozonizer, I run a phosban reactor filled with phosar, upgraded to a huge skimmer, added a canister filter and run it filled with carbon, and I also use kalk dosing as my primary means of ca and alk maintenance. I've also tried all different means of feeding regimens for the fish and corals. Believe me, I really have tried several means of nutrient reduction and that's why I was concerned that maybe my corals didn't have enough nutrients (I now realize that's clearly not the case!). I haven't been completely unsuccessful and over time my tank quality has improved greatly. The ZEOvit will simply help get things under control until the nutrients are exhausted from the rock - a long slow process. From what I've learned over the past year, my reefkeeping practice has improved greatly and I feel like I'm now headed in the right direction with my husbandry.


I've downloaded the Zeovit manual and read all 30 pages several times. I think I've got a good handle on the process so I'll give it a try. From what I've read, the majority of people that have trouble with the ZEOvit and other probiotic systems, simply are too aggressive and take it too fast. I'm truly an impatient Type A personality kind of person and reefkeeping is the balance in my life that teaches me to take things slowly and enjoy the journey.

Thanks again.

Jeremy

 

[shred5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12539485#post12539485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jlinzmaier
I believe the algae is a bryopsis. The only other algae I can see is bubble algae.

Both those algaes can grow in lower nutrient systems but are severly limmited in low nutrient systems and once you get to the lower range bryopsis seems to die off. So you may be on the low side and getting close to where you need to get to eradicate them.

Dave

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12541060#post12541060 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jlinzmaier
I came home today and sat down in front of my tank and sighed in disgust. The browning corals and algae growth are obvious signs of excess nutrients - I can't believe I would think anything else. I spent 4 hrs researching excess nutrients in reef aquaria and how it affects zoox and coral growth. The simple answer is: I undoubtedly have excess nutrients.

I've done some research on ZEOvit and I think I'm going to try the system. It sounds as if there's quite a bit of polarity among common aquarists regarding the ZEO system. People either think it's the next best thing since sliced bread and others think it's a passing fad that can easily crash your system and kill everything. From the research I've read, the concepts seem quite concrete and it seems that if it's done properly and slowly, the ZEO system can be quite successful. I'm sure there are many posts regarding probiotic nutrient reduction, but can anyone point out any obvious reasons why I shouldn't give it a try??? It's seems a bit expensive, but with the money and time I already have invested in my tank, if it works I'll be happy to pay the price.

Please let me know of any obvious cons to the ZEOvit system!! As I said, I've done some thorough research and I'm optomistic it's a practice that can have positive results for my tank.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Jeremy

There is nothing wrong with Zeovit systems. It is basically the carbon/bacteria system with a place for the bacteria to grow, it works great. But it is not a miracle system. It still requires good husbandry and care like any other system. The thing about carbon systems is you have to have the time and you need to be around. It requires carbon dosage and if the bacteria do not get it they will die and lead to bigger problems.

Dave