proper nutrient levels for SPS

[DARKSILENTTYPE]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12543591#post12543591 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by shred5
Both those algaes can grow in lower nutrient systems but are severly limmited in low nutrient systems and once you get to the lower range bryopsis seems to die off. So you may be on the low side and getting close to where you need to get to eradicate them.

Dave

There is nothing wrong with Zeovit systems. It is basically the carbon/bacteria system with a place for the bacteria to grow, it works great. But it is not a miracle system. It still requires good husbandry and care like any other system. The thing about carbon systems is you have to have the time and you need to be around. It requires carbon dosage and if the bacteria do not get it they will die and lead to bigger problems.

Dave

This is exactly what I was getting at when I ask the question .
I agree both those alges can grow in a low nutrient system . I know I am at 0.04 Hanna meter and still fighting Bubble algea.

You really do need to find out what your po4 is at . I would think high if you still have other filter plants living in your sump . I watched mine die off as my tank reached a low nutrient level .



Go slow and read before you add anything to your system is the best advice .

John

 

[jlinzmaier]

You really do need to find out what your po4 is at . I would think high if you still have other filter plants living in your sump .

John (darksilenttype).

I agree. It seems pretty obvious to my now that I likely have high phosphates, just don't have an adequate test kit to monitor it (I will soon). I appreciate the advice.

Jeremy

 

[shred5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12547368#post12547368 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jlinzmaier
John (darksilenttype).

I agree. It seems pretty obvious to my now that I likely have high phosphates, just don't have an adequate test kit to monitor it (I will soon). I appreciate the advice.

Jeremy

Testing for phosphate does not always tell you much.. First you need a expensive low range test kit and they still only measure one type of phosphate, also the algae are consuming it... Basically you have algae you have phosphate, the question is how much?... The thing is your coral need a little to and so does your biological filter. Plus things like bubble algae still thrive in low phosphate but thier growth is limmitied though.

If you do test and get a reading of .1 you know you have issues though. You could test and get a reading of .02 and think well all is good my phosphate is low, no not exactly because you only measured orthophosphhate. Plus you may have enough algae it is consuming a huge chunk of the phosphate.

Another thing is some algae can trap detritus in a low nutrient system or even extract it from the substrate.

Even with all that said it still can be helpful to test. If you get a really high reading you know you have issues. Also I would test your make up water to make sure you aint adding a constant stream of phosphate.

Dave

 

[jlinzmaier]

Thanks for the advice Dave. Very valid points.

On a bit of a side note. I have an extreme amount of vermetid snails growing on everything (I'm assuming another sign of excess nutrients). They are so prevalent that they are even growing on some corals and in turn the corals try to grow over the top of them creating some pretty abnormal looking shapes in my corals. I've tried copper banded butterfly fish and hermits with little success of removing the vermetids. Manual removal would take forever to remove the 10,000 calcified tubes everywhere on every surface(I've been trying but not making any progress). Once I reach a low/ultralow nutrient state, will that kill off some of the vermetids - or at least limit their multiplication?

Jeremy

 

[shred5]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12551909#post12551909 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jlinzmaier
Thanks for the advice Dave. Very valid points.

On a bit of a side note. I have an extreme amount of vermetid snails growing on everything (I'm assuming another sign of excess nutrients). They are so prevalent that they are even growing on some corals and in turn the corals try to grow over the top of them creating some pretty abnormal looking shapes in my corals. I've tried copper banded butterfly fish and hermits with little success of removing the vermetids. Manual removal would take forever to remove the 10,000 calcified tubes everywhere on every surface(I've been trying but not making any progress). Once I reach a low/ultralow nutrient state, will that kill off some of the vermetids - or at least limit their multiplication?

Jeremy

Actually it is not so much a sign of high nutrients but of suspended detritus and food... My tank is pretty low on nutrients scale and I have them... They can reach pretty high populations fast. I have allot of little snails and their feces is constanly floating around and these vermited snails are always neting this. Plus high flow keeps the detritus suspended, The only way to rid them is manual removal or starvation. Mine seem to have leveled off now though... This tank is less than a year old too....

Dave

 

[jlinzmaier]

Must be the frequent feedings of zooplankton keeping the vermetid snails in full tilt multiplication. The zeo system will limit the frequency of zooplankton feeding which will in turn limit available food in the water column for the vermetids.

Throughout this thread it's been made very clear that a photometer is the best way to measure low level phosphates. What about nitrates?? Is a Salifert nitrate test sufficient to monitor the low level nitrates?? (rather not invest a couple hundred $$'s in a nitrate photometer if I don't have to.)

I did purchase a phosphate photometer. I'm guessing my current phosphate levels will read relatively low since there is a significant amount of algae (macro and nuisance) to take it in and remove it from the water column. Once the zeo system gets my nutrient levels low enough to get some of the algae to die off (probably after several months) I should be able to get more accurate and true readings of my phosphate levels. Once the algae is limited, I'll keep a close eye on my phosphate levels to keep it in check. The info on the zeo system boasts that GFO isn't needed, but I'll let my photometer readings decide that. I'm also curious to see what my RO/DI water reads for a phosphate level. The TDS reads 0 but maybe there's still some residual phosphate???

Thanks again everyone.

Jeremy

 

[volcom69]

Yea the saliftert nitrate test are good to use. If you are going to run zeo remember you must have your water parm. at NSW levels in order for the zeo to work properly. You should not run gfo on your system when using this product im not sure but i thought you shouldnt have a refugium on your either. If you are just dosing additives from zeo its ok to use these things, but for full zeo you should not. So make sure you get all your water parm in check before starting.

 

[jlinzmaier]

After discussion with the customer service reps from Zeo, the reason a refugium is incompatible is becuase nutrient levels are so limited macro algae cannot grow and the deep sand bed will continue to leach nutrients. My current refugium is more of an algae scrubber set up than a refugium. I don't have a deep sand bed and I have high flow through it to mazimize the potential for the chaeto to pull nutrients out. Once I see the chaeto stop growing and/or begin to look unhealthy, I'll assume nutrient levels are dropping considerably and I'll disconnect the set up. I'm under the impression that it's OK to run GFO with Zeo however it's not needed becuase the zeo bacteria are so effective at removing phosphate. After the initial nutrient reduction, if I have elevated phos levels I'll speak with the zeo reps before adding any GFO.

Specifically, what water params are you referring to?? My ca, alk, mg, sg, are all good to go. Nitrates currently read 0-1 with a Salifert kit, and phosphate is undecided at the moment. This first initial step with Zeo will be the massive nutrient reduction and I'm not adding any AA's or other zeo products besides the basic 4 until I get my nutrients squared away.

Thanks for letting me know the Salifert nitrate kit is good to go!

Jeremy

 

[reefsahoy]

just curious jlinzmaier, did you put one of the rocks and complete the phosphate test to see if it's leaching phosphates?

 

[jlinzmaier]

Waiting for my phosphate photometer to come before I monkey around. Don't trust the salifert kit.

Jeremy

 

[reefsahoy]

you know if you add sea urchins they will eat your rocks clean of algae. my friend did just that after i told him and they are in the process of cleaning. check it out yourself. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1352650&perpage=25&pagenumber=7

it was so successful he added i think 4 more after the first one.

 

[NewbieForever]

I love my photometer neat toy. Also be sure your not using carbon thats leaching p04, I saw you mentioned running carbon/

 

[jlinzmaier]

Reefsahoy
Tried sea urchins in the past and they act like bulldozers. If everything isn't glued in place they'll tip it upside down. The true fix to the algae is limiting the available nutrients then a standard clean up crew will deal with what algae is already established. Urchins are neat creatures and I do plan on having some in the future (once I can get all my corals glued in place!)

Newbieforever
I use Kent Marine carbon. All carbon leaches po4 to some degree but I've been told the higher end brands tend to release less. When I get the photometer I'll soak some carbon in some RO water and see what kind of results I get. I've got all kinds of plans for that photometer!!

When I begin the Zeo regiemen I'll be switching to the zeo carbon anyway. Not sure if it's really any better, but I'm going to follow the zeo rules as best I can to produce the best possible results.

Thanks.

Jeremy

 

[jlinzmaier]

The photometer came in today!!!!!!

Tank phosphate level reads 0.03 mg/l

RO/DI water reads 0.02 mg/l

effluent from phosphate reactor reads 0.02 mg/l

Roundy's distilled water reads 0.02 mg/l

My thoughts on the readings:

1) Currently the algae in the display is taking in the po4 quickly thus showing a relatively low water column reading. Once I get the algae under control I'll get a more accurate reading of the tanks actual po4 lvls.

2) I'm surprised to see any phosphate at all in my RO/DI water. I'm upgrading my RO/DI system in the near future and I'll see if I can get some higher quality DI resin which will help reduce the po4 (not sure if better DI resin will help with phosphate or not, but I'll discuss with the reps from spectrapure to see what they recommend). In the meantime, I have a spare po4 reactor that I'll use to filter the RO/DI water before I use it.

3) Decreasing the flow through my current po4 reactor (cutting the flow rate from about 100gph to about 40-50 gph). This will hopefully give the GFO more time to absorb the available po4. If that doesn't help I'll change out the media and test again.

4) Very surprised to see that distilled water has po4 in it!!! Is that common?? Makes me worry about the accuracy of my meter. If anyone else has a photometer could you please check some distilled water and see what you get for a reading??

5) I've rinsed some carbon thoroughly in some tap water and let it dry. I'm soaking it in the distilled water and I'll check the water in a few days to see if the carbon is leaching any po4. (I have about 1/4 cup carbon soaking in about 600 ml water)

6) I'm mixing a fresh batch of saltwater to test. I currently have a pail of red sea salt mix and that's what I've been using for the last month. Tomorrow after the salt is thoroughly mixed I'll test and see what I get.

7)Once I have some freshly mixed saltwater I'll pull some rock out of my tank and soak it in the freshly mixed water for a few days. I'll make sure the water params match the tank and I'll provide some circulation and a bit of light occasionally so that there isn't any coincidental die off of any algae which may falsly read that the rock is leaching po4.

Any other thoughts or suggestions for using my new toy??

Jeremy

 

[reefsahoy]

that amount of phosphate out of your ro is ok for sps corals. however, you can add another di filter in series to the other one you have. that's what i do and when the first is fully exhausted and the second begin to get used i replace the first one then replumb so the second become the first, and the new di becomes the second. that way you'll never waste any di and will always get 0 tds.

 

[reefsahoy]

"7)Once I have some freshly mixed saltwater I'll pull some rock out of my tank and soak it in the freshly mixed water for a few days. I'll make sure the water params match the tank and I'll provide some circulation and a bit of light occasionally so that there isn't any coincidental die off of any algae which may falsly read that the rock is leaching po4"


cool, i'll tag along for this cause i had my rocks leach phosphate with this test and i was using salifert test.

 

[jlinzmaier]

that amount of phosphate out of your ro is ok for sps corals

0.02 from the RO/DI isn't acceptable to me. If the overall po4 of the tank was 0.02 I'd be OK, but when I'm already starting with my po4 being 0.02 from my top off it leaves my tank trying to overcome a rising po4 from detritus, food, etc... I have enough factors contiributing to my elevated po4 levels - my RO/DI top off water shouldn't be yet another contributing factor.

I tested the water that the carbon is soaking in. After less than 4 hrs the water already tests at 0.05 (keep in mind that the distilled water that I put it in already tested at 0.02). I wish I had some other brand of carbon to test in comparison. In a few weeks I'll be buying some Zeo carbon and I'll give their product the same test and see how it compares. In the meantime, I'll continue soaking this carbon and see if it continues to leach or if it stops leaching after a certain amount of time.


Jeremy

 

[jlinzmaier]

Quick update on the po4 tests:

Strangely, the water that the carbon was soaking in tested 0.04 but it tested 0.05 yesterday.

Decreasing the rate of the po4 reactor didn't help. Yesterday the effluent tested at 0.02 so I decreased the flow through the reactor. Today, after the decrease in flow rate it tested at 0.03!! I changed the media and now I get a reading of 0.04. Maybe there is some particulate from the fresh GFO altering the test so I'll try again tomorrow.

Also found a bit of an anomaly which may be interfering with my testing. I'll need some help from anyone who uses a hanna phosphate photometer!!

After zeroing the meter, I mix the regeant packet into the solution. How much should I mix the solution???? The directions are a bit vague. Should I simply invert it a few times then hit timed read or should I gently mix it until all the regeant is dissolved and then hit the timed read???? In testing my display water, if I add the regeant then invert the vial 4-5 times (leaving a bit of undissolved regeant in the mixture) I then use the timed read and the result I get is 0.04. If I mix the solution until the regeant is completely dissolved and then use the timed read the result is 0.02. I sent an e-mail to hanna customer service so they can clarify but I thought I'd ask some fellow reefers also.

Jeremy

 

[jlinzmaier]

Got detailed instructions from hanna about mixing the reagent.

Changed the media in the GFO reactor yesterday and got a reading from the effluent of 0.04 45 min after changing the media. Today the effluent still reads 0.04. The rate is extremely slow and I can't imagine slowing the rate any more would have a beneficial effect. I increased the rate a bit and I'll see what it tests at tomorrow.

Yesterday I tested some freshly mixed saltwater (red sea salt mix) and the po4 reading was 0.06 (the RO/DI water was 0.02 to begin with). I placed a large piece of LR from my display in approx 3 gal of the freshly mixed water (matched temp, and water parms, also added some occasional circulation and a light cycle similar to the tank to prevent any incidental die off of algae). Today, the water that the rock is soaking in still reads 0.06 (didn't leach any po4 - great!!!). I'll continue to let it soak and test again after a few days.

Jeremy

 

[reefsahoy]

jlinzmaier,

i've been following your thread since it's begining and told you that i think i have the same issue. here's MHO on this. Like i do, Your system is too clean and what i mean by this is your skimmer is oversized, you run carbon 24/7, you have phos reactor on 24/7 and have light coloration of your sps. but i got one question for you. What is your clean up crew like? here's what i'm doing and i think my colors are getting better and i still don't have to wipe my glass but mabye 2 times a week (which signals to me low trace elements and food in water column).

1. i had added 40 snails to my tank and alot of the algae on the rocks are gone before this thread started.
2. i started feeding sps at least 2 times a day and now my skimmer is pulling more.
3. i'm feeding my fish more often now (2 times a day when i remember)
4. add trace elements now and still do 15% water change every 2 weeks.

i started this about a month ago and still haven't seen any increase in algae and i'm still wiping the glass 2 times a week and notice an increase of skimmate which i think is good. I also believe my colors are getting better and for sure my open brain and mushrooms are much better but remember that good thing happen SLOW in this hobby and only BAD this happen fast. I think you should consider dosing trace elements and feed more to the sps while monitoring if any increase in glass wiping. i think your system is low on these. i don't think you have a phosphate problem.