Pump Adivse Needed

[pezcubano]

I'm starting a 75 Gallon marine tank that I plan on growing soft and hard corals in. I'm looking into a Mag 9.5 that should give me around 950 GPH. Should I get something more powerful so as not to be constrained by the pump when I start adding the corals?
Any recommendations on brands?
Thanks so much...

 

[Hop]

A pump for what?

If your looking for a return pump from your sump than the recommended flow is 3-5 times the system volume per hour. Meaning that a pump delivering between 225 to 375 gallons per hour would be sufficient. Do some searching on here to learn more about this recommendation. Basically you want to match that same hourly turn over with your skimmer.

Now if you are looking at the mag for a closed loop to supplement the return, it may be undersized and IMO there are better, quieter pumps for this.

 

[pezcubano]

thanks for the advice

thanks for the advice

Thanks for the advice!!!

 

[mg426]

I agree a Mag 9.5 might be a bit much for a 75.

 

[Jim_S]

I'd look at an eheim 1250 if you wanted to go internal. Good, solid, reliable pumps.

I'd go with a panworld 40px if you can go external. Also very good pump, just need to be run outside the sump.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[pezcubano]

Filtration Pump

Filtration Pump

I'm a little confused...
I read your post saying I should look for a pump that will deliver 3-5 times, however I spoke to some people at the aquarium store that said I should go with at least a Mag 12.

I want to have good circulation for when I introduce corals, so my plan is to spread the water returning to the tank by using some plastic pipe with small holes in it.

Also, what is the benefit of an external over an internal?

Thanks...

 

[sjm817]

You are getting good advice here. 3 - 5x display size is a good flow rate from a return pump. Using too large a return pump is a very common mistake.

Internal pumps are water cooled and add heat to the water. If you dont use one that is too large, its not a problem. External pumps are often air cooled and may not add as much heat.

And also......

[welcome]

 

[DarG]

Don't mean to Hijack but I think this will help the posters concerns too.

Still looking for an explanation on why you shouldnt have more than 3-5X flow with the return pump from sump?

Thanks

 

[Hop]

Understand that there are a few methods to setting up a tank. There are also several different ways to move water. In addition, the local fish people may not have read this section of the manual yet:lol:

I'm hoping that I don't insult you by going back to basics of water movement in the reef tank.
-First, as stated before, there are a few theories on setting up a tank and how to deliver flow. The following recommendation is one that is quite common and based on my experience (I really don't want to start a debate here:lol the best I have found.

*So IMO a tank(with a sump) should have two legs of flow.

* The first leg of flow is the sump return. The flow rate for the sump should be 3-5 times the system volume. Why? For a few reasons.

The first reason is to match, or come close to your skimmer recommendation. If you do some research you will see that skimmer manufacturers often recommend a pump to feed the skimmer that matches about 1-2.5 times the system volume to hour. So if we match or come close to matching the flow through rate in the sump, to the skimmer, we have greater efficiency in waste export.

The second reason is although it can be done, it is much easier to control microbubbles with a slower volume of water flowing through the sump. This means less bandaids such as skimmer mods, filtersocks, extra baffles and a slew of other mods people employ to decrease micro bubbles.

* The second leg of flow should be with a closed loop of quality powerheads. Depending on what's in you tank a turn over rate of 10, 20 or 50 times the system volume per hour is made up here. This will help diatris from settling and remain suspended in order for it to make it's way to the overflow and hopefully make it into the skimmer on the first pass

So in a nutshell this is a good guideline for setting up a tank with the least amount of headaches. It's certainly not ground breaking info, it's been around for years. I, like many others, fell into the flow at all costs group initially and was trying to force a little over 20 times my system volume through my sump. Six months, tons of money and a lot of headaches later, I still had microbubbles and changed pumps. Over night I was skimming better and had less microbubbles. I even took all my mods off my sump as they were no longer needed.

I hope this helps a little

Good luck!

 

[DarG]

The vast majority of my microbubbles came from my Skimmer return, not my flow through the sump. Whatever my skimmer misses the first pass, it will eventually get. Parameters have always been excellent (as long as I am keeping up with normal maint.) in my tank with somewhere around 10X flow through the sump. My Chiller is getting somehwere closer to the low-middle of its recommended flow rate than toward the high end of it and I sure as heck am not going to run a closed loop just to get enough flow to the chiller when I can do it with the main return pump.

I'm sure 3 - 5 X is better, but 10X has been working great for me.

 

[Hop]

Well first off... Exactly. But slowing the flow rate through the sump could alleviate the bubble issue. that's what the baffles are for, but you have to give them time to dissipate. Decreasing the amount of time they have to dissipate through the sump causes more bubbles in the display

Second, I think that the theory on the skimmer pass is that by the time the stuff makes it to the skimmer a second time, there is now more stuff in the tank as a whole for it to extract. True it's the same body of water, but it's a closed system with waste being created infinitely.

And as I mentioned above, there are many philosophies to setting up a tank and many ways to run equipment. If it works for you, run it. I'm just trying to make the easiest set up and transition to someone that is apparently new to reef central.

Cheers!

 

[Toddrtrex]

I agree 100% with Hop (god help me. ) and one thing I would like to add, is you will have to make sure that the return pump doesn't pump more than your overflow can handle. Without knowing if your tank is reef ready, or you are using an HOB over flow box -- in general for that sized tank you can count on the overflow being able to handle a 600 gph return pump -- maybe less.

 

[DarG]

I have no argument, I'm sure that the 3 - 5 X guideline is best to follow. I do use filter bags so microbubbles are not an issue anyway. Alot of people use them with zero problems, eventhough modern thinking leans toward the use of NO mechanical particulate filtration. Proper maintainence leads to no problems from my using them. My levels, or lack of them, show that things are working. And it makes more sense in my system, for me, to supply the chiller within the main return chain and I cannot efficiently do that at 3-5X turnover.

But I appreciate finally hearing the reaons why the slower flow is recommended. I never could get a complete answer before now. So thank you Hop. I really do appreciate it.

Oh, and my overflow is a Lifereef double.

 

[enemec1]

I had a 75 gallon set up for a little over a year. the return pump was a mag 9.5 I even had it Teed off to supply my fuge. It worked great for me.

 

[Hop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9951400#post9951400 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DarG
I have no argument, I'm sure that the 3 - 5 X guideline is best to follow. I do use filter bags so microbubbles are not an issue anyway. Alot of people use them with zero problems, eventhough modern thinking leans toward the use of NO mechanical particulate filtration. Proper maintainence leads to no problems from my using them. My levels, or lack of them, show that things are working. And it makes more sense in my system, for me, to supply the chiller within the main return chain and I cannot efficiently do that at 3-5X turnover.

But I appreciate finally hearing the reaons why the slower flow is recommended. I never could get a complete answer before now. So thank you Hop. I really do appreciate it.

Oh, and my overflow is a Lifereef double.

I hope I didn't sound like I was looking for an argument I'm glad that you chimed in and pointed out what was working for you. Hopefully pezcubano sees exactly what I was saying about different applications for different situations.

I was typing up a vermetid id and eradication report for my website when I was replying before and after re-reading the post it sounded snippy:lol: sorry!

Oh and I run a lifereef single on my 125 My big tank has an intergrated extrnal overflow, but it doesn't have water in it, so I guess it just takes up air right now

 

[zbrook1]

What about using a ball valve to regulate the output of the 950 mag? I myself fell to the advice of the LFS and just finished running all my pvc and added water to my 75 gal with a 950 mag in a 20 gal sump as my return. My overflow is a Eshopps PF-1200 so i dont think I'll have a problem in that area.(2 seperate 1inch returns)

 

[Toddrtrex]

With that return you should be okay, with the Mag 950, a ball valve should work out perfectly.

One note -- I have a smaller Eshopps on my 29, and I noticed that the U-tube isn't long enough -- it would lose syphon when ever I shut off the main pump. I added a piece of PVC to the end so that it will stay underwater when the pump is off. I knew I should have gone with the LIfereef overflow like I have on my 75.

 

[pezcubano]

Hop, thanks so much for all the advice. I can't tell you how much its helped me over the past day of setup on my tank. I understand the reasons for the 3-5 range and they makes sense. I am still a little confused with some other things you mentioned.

1) Microbubbles - What are they and how do I detect them? I have a 20 gallon sump and from what my naked eye can see, there are no small bubbles circulating through the system.
2) What are quality powerheads? What is a "turn rate of 10, 20 or 50 times the system volume per hour? Finally, what is diatris?

I currently have my HOB with a u-tube coming from my overflow and my sump below with a Rio 2500 returning the water. I got the system cranked up two days ago and I'm allowing for the system to cycle. In the meantime I'm trying to decide how I want to run the system once the cycle is done.
The final goal is to have a reef tank with some fish in it (uncomplicated species). I'm leaning towards an external return pump (based on the recommendations from my lfs) and I have yet to look into a skimmer. Any recommendations on skimmer setup and internal vs. external?

THanks so much!!!

 

[Hop]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9969001#post9969001 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by pezcubano
Hop, thanks so much for all the advice. I can't tell you how much its helped me over the past day of setup on my tank. I understand the reasons for the 3-5 range and they makes sense. I am still a little confused with some other things you mentioned.

1) Microbubbles - What are they and how do I detect them? I have a 20 gallon sump and from what my naked eye can see, there are no small bubbles circulating through the system.
2) What are quality powerheads? What is a "turn rate of 10, 20 or 50 times the system volume per hour? Finally, what is diatris?

I currently have my HOB with a u-tube coming from my overflow and my sump below with a Rio 2500 returning the water. I got the system cranked up two days ago and I'm allowing for the system to cycle. In the meantime I'm trying to decide how I want to run the system once the cycle is done.
The final goal is to have a reef tank with some fish in it (uncomplicated species). I'm leaning towards an external return pump (based on the recommendations from my lfs) and I have yet to look into a skimmer. Any recommendations on skimmer setup and internal vs. external?

THanks so much!!!

No problem. Glad it helped! Let me try to answer these...
1. If you can't see any really small bubbles in the display, you have things set up perfect No reason to worry about them.

2. A quality powerhead (if you decide on powerheads over a closed loop) would be namebrands such as tunze, vortec and even the new hydor korila. these powerheads turn over high volumes of water through a large cone shape. Upwards of 1000 gallons per hour.

2a. The turnover rate is just the volume of your tank multiplied by 10, 20 etc. Lets say you have a 30 gallon tank. For softies and some lps, you might be fine with 10-20 times turn over... So 300 to 600 gallons per hour through these powerheads. Or if your running a SPS tank you may need 900-1800 gallons per hour.

2b. diatris may be misspelled but basically fish poop and other solid organic waste that settles on the bottom of the tank.

Now onto the pump... If you go external, do you have the ability to drill the sump? If not it may be easier to go with a good submersible pump like an eheim. We can discuss this later if need be

Skimmers are a hot debate right now. No matter what I type here, your going to get three more people that disagree:lol: IMO, especially just starting off, buy a good name brand needle wheel skimmer such as euro reef, H&S, octopus or ASM. These are nice skimmers that you can set and pretty much forget about aside from emptying the collection cup. This way you can worry about learning and getting comfortable with other aspects of the hobby instead of how to keep your skimmer working. As far as internal or external, I would just go with the biggest you have room for inside or outside the sump.

 

[Toddrtrex]

The only thing I want to add to Hop's great post, is that any if you do go with an external pump you don't need to drill your sump, 2 out of 3 of my sumps have external pumps and aren't drilled. Just need to use the "over the back" method of plumbing your return -- pretty easy.