"Pushing the Window"

[snorvich]

Many fields have folks that "push the window" of what is being done in their particular field. Computers is certainly an easily visible example where what was previously thought to be impossible is now everyday.

Our hobby has some fish that are perceived to be "difficult to keep" or perhaps "impossible to keep". But some of us, push the window and try to keep fish that were previously not keep-able. Kevin Kohen of Drs. Foster and Smith is certainly one of them, now keeping Anampses Feminus, Macropharyngon choati, Oxymonacanthus longirostris and more, and Matt Wandell for various anthias even Pseudoanthias tuka the "holy grail" of anthias. I am sure there are others who should be mentioned here and I hope they will chime in and add to this thread.

So, two questions:

1. Are any of you pushing the window by trying to keep fish that are difficult/impossible to keep

2. What fish fall into the unkeepable category that you are considering trying?

 

[sTefaniA]

I only have two fish that are considered to be difficult to keep but not impossible: achilles tang and anampses neoguinaicus.
I am on the lookout for a femininus wrasse, but i'm still not sure about it. Expensive, but gorgeous!

 

[29reef]

I think the small and ever growing group of people who are keeping orange spot filefish would fit in this thread.

 

[niter]

Right now, I'm tasked with fish selection for the tank and I pick fish based on how they fit into the tank. With two small children the expense monetarily and timewise (which is more valuable) would decrease my enjoyment of rare fish husbandry. Either the job is done correctly or one is just causing the animal harm. Without the proper resources--time--it is just not something I am comfortable with currently.

The upside? I enjoy the research process and appreciate the efforts that others have taken. I really CAN see myself involved in this portion of reef keeping (such as my husband is drawn to rarer/harder corals).

 

[rssjsb]

I would add a third question: What difficult species have you tried and lost?

Keeping Now:

O. Solorensis (reticulated or spotted boxfish) - Consensus is that ostracion boxes are impossible to keep longer than six months. I've had my female for over a year. Tried two males, but one was DOA and the other died after a couple of months. Took her a long time to eat anything but live brine. I introduced a skinny little toby to QT with her and she started on mysis. Now eats frozen food, pellets, nori, and spirulina tabs.

Singapore angel (not that hard if you find one that's eating, but still considered difficult) - I've had it for a couple of years. I think this is just the luck of the draw.

Coming today: Multibarred angel from DD

Unsuccessful tries:

Golden angel - Died in QT after a week.
Yellow striped clingfish - Never ate, died in QT.

Considering: I'd like to try another golden if I can find one on DD, and another female solorensis. Other than that, I don't really have any ambitions.

 

[SDguy]

Currently, nothing too dramatic. A Chaetodon collare is probably the most difficult, followed by a new Chelmon marginalis.

In the past, I think the most difficult species that I kept successfuly was a spotted snake eel Myrichthys maculosus.

Failures include a pair of Chaetodon baronessa (6 months) and P. tuke anthias (though this was before anything like frozen roe was available).

 

[twon8]

Ive got a Flagfin Angel that I've had for close to four years now, an Anampses neog. wrasse, a splendid leapord wrasse, a copperband BF I've had for close to five years.

I'm waiting for DD to get another large Moorish Idol and give that a try.

 

[MrTuskfish]

I have two Moorish Idols and an Achilles Tang right now. I kept two Idols for about 10 years prior to moving. Also had an Achilles and a Clown Tang for many years,when they were considered almost impossible. There are a few others. I've had a few failures too. IMO; at least half of the fish that were usually considered "expert only" a few years ago, really aren't that tough---as evidenced by the fact that I'm no expert.
The fish Kevin keeps are another story, he's amazing and keeps fish considered "God Only". (Had his failures too, but that come with the territory.)

 

[djkms]

I have two Moorish Idols and an Achilles Tang right now. I kept two Idols for about 10 years prior to moving. Also had an Achilles and a Clown Tang for many years,when they were considered almost impossible. There are a few others. I've had a few failures too. IMO; at least half of the fish that were usually considered "expert only" a few years ago, really aren't that tough---as evidenced by the fact that I'm no expert.
The fish Kevin keeps are another story, he's amazing and keeps fish considered "God Only". (Had his failures too, but that come with the territory.)

Are your Idols housed together? If so how is that working out?

I have a Idol. Purchased from Divers Den. Doing well, eating good and appears to be stress free. I am considering trying a Potters Leopard Wrasse next. I am currently studying what I can on the fish. I am actually intrigued by "Expert Only" fish. I will be at Reefstock tomorrow and one of the speakers is actually talking about expert only fish and how they are easier to care for than you might think. Very interested to hear what he has to say.
http://reefstock.************.com/2011/02/12/reefstock-2011-speakers-will-be-sharon-ram-matt-wandell-and-julian-sprung/

Ok forgot RBuilders is blocked. Here is a copy/paste

ReefStock is a fun aquarium conference held in Denver Colorado, at the Denver Downtown Aquarium. One month from today, on March 12th, the 4th annual ReefStock will go down once again, featuring some of the best livestock, hottest new products, and the brightest minds in the reef aquarium world. Following up on speakers like Joshi, Kohen, Yaiullo and Karl is hard, but we believe this year’s lineup does justice to ReefStock’s tradition of having only the most stimulating speaker presentations. This year’s speakers will be Sharon Ram of Israel, Matt Wandell from San Francisco and Julian Sprung from Miami Florida.

Sharon Ram is the chief scientist for Red Sea, the company that took the All-in-one concept to the next level with the Red Sea Max and completely new lineup of reefing products releasing this year. Sharon Ram was born in the city of Haifa, Israel, on the Mediterranean coast. He holds a B.SC. and M.Sc. in “biology and marine bio-chemistry” from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, including research at the Israel National Mariculture Institute on the Red Sea. Over the past fifteen years, Sharon has developed a wealth of knowledge and expertise in marine chemistry and coral bio-chemistry. Much of the new formulations of Red Sea’s additive line is based on findings of Sharon Ram’s research which is the the focus of Ram’s talk: “Bioenergy needs of corals in the reef aquarium“.

Matt Wandell is an Aquatic Biologist at the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco, where he tends to the Steinhart Aquarium’s 200,000 gallon coral reef tank. He has been an avid reefkeeping hobbyist since 1999, has written articles for Advanced Aquarist Magazine, Reefs Magazine, Reef Hobbyist Magazine, and Reef Builders. Matt really likes the rare and unusual fish, but in his talk “Expert Only Fish: They aren’t as tough as you might think“, Matt is going to share some reasons why it isn’t too terribly hard to keep fish with have certain requirements in captivity.

Julian Sprung is a biologist, author, aquarium design consultant, and co-founder and President of Two Little Fishies, Inc. He has been keeping marine aquariums for over 30 years, and has traveled all over the world to observe and photograph coral reef creatures in nature and in specially designed aquariums. Julian’s books include The Reef Aquarium, Volumes 1-3, co-authored with J. Charles Delbeek and considered the “bibles” on the subject, Corals: A Quick Reference Guide, Invertebrates: A Quick Reference Guide, and Algae: A Problem Solver Guide. In his presentation Julian is going to discuss the point where art meets science in his talk “Where do Reef Aquariums, industry and Science meet?”

For more information on the ReefStock conference, keep an eye on the ReefStock blog where we will be making frequent updates about speakers, raffle prizes, exhibitors and coral vendors.

 

[MrTuskfish]

IME, Idols do very well together. Getting them to eat is usually the hard part; I always use a freshly opened clam, with some magic Cyclops-eeze in the water. Once eating, Idols will eat almost anything. I think a lot of folks consider these fish herbivores (they are omnivores) and try to get them to eat greens at first, and fail. IME, any fish, including herbivores, will usually eat meaty stuff first when being stubborn. My Idols do get some sponge, but I'm not convinced its needed, but I'm sure not going to change what works.

 

[AuroraDrvr]

Here's a list of the more challenging butterflies I've tried. The problem with most of these fish that didn't last, was that they were received in poor general health to begin with. As Coppolino would say, they were "swimming dead". The one that was in good health when received (Rainfordi from LA/DD) would have lived a long life, had it not died in a tank accident.

Chaetodon meyeri
Chaetodon rainfordi (9 months, lost to tank accident)
Coradion melanopus
Coradion chrysozonus
Heniochus chrysostomus
Chaetodon fremblii

I'm shelving butterflies for a little while, and now I am working on obtaining another completely different type of fish that is super hard to keep. I'll update this thread and create another thread to track the progress when I get them.

 

[SDguy]

Todd, I thought your Coradions came in OK (but had flukes?) but didn't eat?

 

[AuroraDrvr]

Todd, I thought your Coradions came in OK (but had flukes?) but didn't eat?

Yep, out of those listed the Coradion melanopus was in good shape, but never took to prepared foods. It wasn't in that "swimming dead" category.

Although it was received with a heavy fluke infestation.

 

[SDguy]

Yeah, I remember being so disappointed to hear your results, since I very much wanted to try those fish

 

[myerst2]

Steve, "pushing the window?". I think you mean pushing the envelope. Regardless, I think pushing the envelope is what makes this hobby so great. On the other hand it's horrible when a person gets an animalnthat is difficult to keep and has done little research or has the skills and time in order to have the best chance at success. T

 

[MrTuskfish]

Steve, "pushing the window?". I think you mean pushing the envelope. Regardless, I think pushing the envelope is what makes this hobby so great. On the other hand it's horrible when a person gets an animalnthat is difficult to keep and has done little research or has the skills and time in order to have the best chance at success. T

Sure, this is often the case with a very hardy fish too. In fact, probably far more often than with tough to keep fish. "Difficult" fish are not necessarily rare. Example: moorish idols are very common and widely distributed. Sadly, I think about 90% of the posts on this forum are questions that should have been researched by the hobbyist before purchase.

 

[snorvich]

Steve, "pushing the window?". I think you mean pushing the envelope.

Poetic License allows creating a fractured term for our hobby (and getting old also gives license, just wait, you will see). But yes, pushing the envelope. Sure many questions could have been answered with reasonable research, but I am most interested in the creative process that will extend what we are able to keep in our aquaria. I see Kevin do this, and Matt for sure. Those folks that extend our knowledge of what is possible are the ones who have already allowed us to keep what was impossible five years ago.

 

[Eric the half-bee]

Steve, I have succesfully housed a Janns' pipe in my 400 gal. reef as well as a ribbon eel. These are not as challenging as some of the fish others have listed but surprisingly, they have done quite well. I would love to try an achilles but have not tried yet. Unsuccessful attempts-sohal, PBT, filefish, purple tile, and others I've forgotten.

 

[rssjsb]

Well, sadly, the multibar didn't make it through acclimation this morning.

This is the depressing part of "pushing the window/envelope."

 

[snorvich]

I dream about being able to house pipe fish and especially Harlequin ghost pipefish which always fascinated me during my diving days. Although I used to photography blue ribbon eels, I have never had the urge to keep them in aquaria. My current love is anthias . . .