"Pushing the Window"

[pacislandaqua]

two things i have realized:

1) the term "expert only" is now obsolete. It should be changed to "someone who will take the time to care for it properly" - this statement is more applicable since, IMO, none of us are "experts"

2) Time change... man, why does this always get left out when people talk about fish, shipping, holding, feeding etc ? This, to me, is the number one reason fish die after we receive them. Think about getting a fish from HI to east coast.. that is a 6 hour time change which will completely throw off the fish's internal clock.. If you have flown 12 hours in any direction, you know how much it throws off your clock... A fish should be QTd with this in mind and slowly changed to what your clock is...

 

[djkms]

two things i have realized:

1) the term "expert only" is now obsolete. It should be changed to "someone who will take the time to care for it properly" - this statement is more applicable since, IMO, none of us are "experts"

2) Time change... man, why does this always get left out when people talk about fish, shipping, holding, feeding etc ? This, to me, is the number one reason fish die after we receive them. Think about getting a fish from HI to east coast.. that is a 6 hour time change which will completely throw off the fish's internal clock.. If you have flown 12 hours in any direction, you know how much it throws off your clock... A fish should be QTd with this in mind and slowly changed to what your clock is...

I agree with the expert only thing. Techniques and husbandry have come a long way in 20 years.

LOL about the time change, cracked me up, hope you were kidding :lolspin:

 

[Hookup]

two things i have realized:

1) the term "expert only" is now obsolete. It should be changed to "someone who will take the time to care for it properly" - this statement is more applicable since, IMO, none of us are "experts"

very correct I think... with very few exceptions you are likely correct... however... deep-pockets are often required as so many "expert fish" arrive in a state that is "swimming dead"... takes 10 fish to get one healthy kind of idea... $49x10 = deep pockets...

2) Time change... man, why does this always get left out when people talk about fish, shipping, holding, feeding etc ? This, to me, is the number one reason fish die after we receive them. Think about getting a fish from HI to east coast.. that is a 6 hour time change which will completely throw off the fish's internal clock.. If you have flown 12 hours in any direction, you know how much it throws off your clock... A fish should be QTd with this in mind and slowly changed to what your clock is...

now thats a thought i've never seen/heard before... my immediate reaction is naw... common, just fish... but just maybe you've got something there... it causes me stress, so why not fish too...

interesting...

 

[Matt_Wandell]

1) the term "expert only" is now obsolete. It should be changed to "someone who will take the time to care for it properly" - this statement is more applicable since, IMO, none of us are "experts"

Definitely agreed. I just gave a talk at ReefStock with the title "Expert Only" fish, emphasis on the quotes. There is nothing that separates any aquarium professional, public aquarist, author, marine biologist, etc. from any hobbyist who is dedicated and has a lot of time, money, and knowledge at their disposal.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

One other point of clarification. Successful Keeping, in my mind is allowing a fish to live out its natural life in an environment where it will thrive not just survive. Bad husbandry may in the short run allow a fish to survive but it certainly will not thrive.

Agreed. I think I would define success as living the term of its natural lifespan, attaining a size that is comparable to average size in the wild, and reproducing if pairs or groups are kept. Coloration is another thing that could be thrown in there, although it seems some fish will just not attain coloration like in the wild no matter what you do.

For what it's worth this means that almost no one is keeping tangs or angelfish "successfully" by this definition...yet.

 

[djkms]

Definitely agreed. I just gave a talk at ReefStock with the title "Expert Only" fish, emphasis on the quotes. There is nothing that separates any aquarium professional, public aquarist, author, marine biologist, etc. from any hobbyist who is dedicated and has a lot of time, money, and knowledge at their disposal.

Matt you are one of the only reasons I went to Reefstock. I was really looking forward to your speech and to be able to talk to you about this subject. I got there at 10am and by 3pm I was beat and the wife was getting anxious to leave so I missed your speech. Did you by chance record it so I can listen to it somewhere?

 

[huskerreef]

I would agree that being an expert is more about having the time to do the research, but more importantly the time and dedication to carry out the requirments. If a particular fish requires multiple feedings daily or has specialized diet that is more challenging to obtain and you don't have the time to do this or has any number of requirements that you can't provide I wouldn't say you are pushing the window, I would say you have a cool fish and your just hoping it works out. I know that there are those on this site such as Snorvich, Coppolino, Chingchai or Nineball that when they put up a thread I read it every time becuase they all have proven there commitment to the animal and the hobby so you get experiences that you can count on being accurate.

 

[Matt_Wandell]

Matt you are one of the only reasons I went to Reefstock. I was really looking forward to your speech and to be able to talk to you about this subject. I got there at 10am and by 3pm I was beat and the wife was getting anxious to leave so I missed your speech. Did you by chance record it so I can listen to it somewhere?

Hey Kris that is very humbling and thank you. Sorry we didn't get a chance to meet and talk. By 3pm I was pretty darn beat m'self. AFAIK it wasn't recorded but if you hang out here in the reef fish forum enough or read my articles for Reef Hobbyist and Reefs Magazines I say pretty much the same things that I did in my talk. Emphases are on QTing fish properly, feeding the crap out of them, and placing them in a tank designed around their needs.

 

[snorvich]

two things i have realized:

2) Time change... man, why does this always get left out when people talk about fish, shipping, holding, feeding etc ? This, to me, is the number one reason fish die after we receive them. Think about getting a fish from HI to east coast.. that is a 6 hour time change which will completely throw off the fish's internal clock.. If you have flown 12 hours in any direction, you know how much it throws off your clock... A fish should be QTd with this in mind and slowly changed to what your clock is...

No, he is not kidding. Think leopard wrasses collected in Australia and shipped here. Their biological clock (fish definitely have them) is totally out of synch with our native zone clock. It really does make a difference in acclimating them.

 

[djkms]

Sorry, did not mean any disrespect. It just seemed a tad funny.

Sent from my Droid Incredible.

 

[SDguy]

I would agree that being an expert is more about having the time to do the research, but more importantly the time and dedication to carry out the requirments. If a particular fish requires multiple feedings daily or has specialized diet that is more challenging to obtain and you don't have the time to do this or has any number of requirements that you can't provide I wouldn't say you are pushing the window, I would say you have a cool fish and your just hoping it works out.

I think this is a very important point in this thread. Great post!

 

[snorvich]

huskerreef makes an excellent point; one we should all consider carefully.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I agree to a certain extent, but sometimes there's no way to know what the requirements really are. If time and money includes going out and observing the fish in the wild and perhaps dissecting some for stomach contents, then I'd say I agree.

How did we learn that tukas have to eat constantly? Do they eat more than other anthias? When I tried the tukas a few years back maybe I didn't do enough research, but I did not know they have to eat 5-7 times a day and I only fed my 3x a day. I thought the problem was just getting them to eat.

Also I'd never see a healthy one and didn't learn until later that mine were week and skinny when I bought them.

 

[djkms]

I think the 2 biggest obstacles we face as hobbyists (and why we cant keep certain fish with any degree of success) are:

Social structure & open space

To me these are things we just cant replicate no matter how much knowledge we have or how deep our pockets are. The only exception to this IMO is public aquariums. They are able to house fish in thousands and thousands of gallons of water.

Social structure. Take Anthias for example. They school in the hundreds, if not thousands and this is something we just cannot replicate in our home aquariums. Throwing 5 anthias together and calling it a school is in no way meeting this social need that they have in the wild.

Open space. Sure we have our minimum size requirements for fish but this does not meet the true need of the fish IMO. Even with a 1000 gallon tank we are still "jailing" the fish. They are trapped to a confined area and can only do so much in that little area. Imagine if you lived in a 5,000 square foot mansion with all kinds of neat things to look at and a lifetime supply of food but you could never leave that mansion. Your only link to the outside world is some HUUUUGE face staring at you for a couple hours a day or some really big hand moving your couch from one place to another! :lolspin: It might just stress you out a bit also!

 

[Matt_Wandell]

How did we learn that tukas have to eat constantly? Do they eat more than other anthias?

Well, all anthias are eating constantly in the wild. The way we can get around feeding *most anthias species* only 3 or 4 times a day in captivity is that we give them big meals.

Unfortunately Tuka anthias do not understand that things like mysid shrimp (even live ones) are meals and will not eat big pieces of food--it's just hardwired into their brains to search for very tiny pieces of food. How did I learn that? Careful observation and experimenting with different foods. You can get them to accept clam, shrimp, krill, mysis, etc within a few weeks if you chop it up fine enough, rinse it and strain it. In the short term they will usually only accept live baby brine or copepods.

 

[snorvich]

You can get them to accept clam, shrimp, krill, mysis, etc within a few weeks if you chop it up fine enough, rinse it and strain it. In the short term they will usually only accept live baby brine or copepods.

How do you chop? Or do you use a blender. Also, do you supplement with Vitality or equivalent?

 

[Angel*Fish]

^^I was wondering that, too^^

Well, all anthias are eating constantly in the wild. The way we can get around feeding *most anthias species* only 3 or 4 times a day in captivity is that we give them big meals.

Unfortunately Tuka anthias do not understand that things like mysid shrimp (even live ones) are meals and will not eat big pieces of food--it's just hardwired into their brains to search for very tiny pieces of food. How did I learn that? Careful observation and experimenting with different foods. You can get them to accept clam, shrimp, krill, mysis, etc within a few weeks if you chop it up fine enough, rinse it and strain it. In the short term they will usually only accept live baby brine or copepods.

Thanks It's so exciting to see your success. For two reasons -one, it's just so awesome and impressive and two, because now we know what's required and when someone posts wanting them we can say, sure get as many as you want - here's a link to what you have to do.

 

[Elysia]

Agreed. I think I would define success as living the term of its natural lifespan, attaining a size that is comparable to average size in the wild, and reproducing if pairs or groups are kept.

Perhaps it is because I am not a successful fish owner yet, but I do not know if I would correlate a fish living to its "natural lifespan" to being successful with a species. Its a great goal that hopefully we are all trying to acheive, but I think it has to do much more with being successful overall -- I mean, losing power, a fish jumping out of a covered aquarium, surviving a tank move... there are many things that can kill a captive fish before it arrives at the end of its possible lifespan, and many have little to do with how successfully you were caring for that species before that incident.

It may be semantics, but I do not think you can discount those times when a fish is kept, thriving, for years in a captive environment as being successful, just because the fish may die before it reaches old age. Those incidents may reflect on the success of the fish keeper, but they don't necessarily reflect on the success that person had with keeping the species.

 

[AquaKnight]

Been awhile since I've been around, and my Rock Beauty is still doing well. Full 3" now. Maybe not exactly 'Pushing the Window,' as a long term success definition, though 2.5 years of ownership is something virtually unheard of with Rock Beauties....

First acquired;
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/192/dsc01509tg.jpg

Today;

 

[Matt_Wandell]

Perhaps it is because I am not a successful fish owner yet, but I do not know if I would correlate a fish living to its "natural lifespan" to being successful with a species. Its a great goal that hopefully we are all trying to acheive, but I think it has to do much more with being successful overall -- I mean, losing power, a fish jumping out of a covered aquarium, surviving a tank move... there are many things that can kill a captive fish before it arrives at the end of its possible lifespan, and many have little to do with how successfully you were caring for that species before that incident.

It may be semantics, but I do not think you can discount those times when a fish is kept, thriving, for years in a captive environment as being successful, just because the fish may die before it reaches old age. Those incidents may reflect on the success of the fish keeper, but they don't necessarily reflect on the success that person had with keeping the species.

Agreed, somewhat. Sorta kinda. I don't think what you are saying is just semantics and is an important grey area. I also think what you are calling successful overall is what I lump in as part and parcel of what it means to be successful with a species. The tank design itself, choosing proper tankmates, having backup life support, a backup generator, etc. are all just as important as what you feed them and such. Short of a natural disaster or sabotage, there really are very few excuses for a fish's premature death that are truly unavoidable.

But really I am just quibbling over details and I think we pretty much are agreeing.