QT with ammonia!

[nsinger]

I set up a 20 gal QT 3 days ago with water from my DT and a Marineland Emperor 280 HOB that had been in the sump of the DT for 5 days. I got a medium sized naso 2 days ago who I'm trying to coax to eat but isn't. Yesterday my ammonia was 0, today it is .5! I did an 8 gallon water change today.

Is this common? Bad? Can I add "colonize" in an attempt to get my bacteria up? How often and how much water changes do I need to do until the ammonia stabilizes?

Thanks.

 

[abulgin]

Yes, common. I assume that your QT doesn't have any substrate, live rock, etc., which leaves your filter media as the only place for bacteria to grow. In the display, there is just so much surface area, whereas in the QT the surface area is limited to the filter media. Accordingly, QTs are typically easy to get readings and you just need to be vigilent about water changes. I'd do a 50% water change pronto to get your ammonia down. If you're not treating your Naso with any medicines (e.g., copper, etc.), you can throw a few pieces of LR that you don't care about (reef rubble works great for this) in the tank to boost the bacteria culture. If you need to treat, just pull the LR out (but don't put it in your display as you'll just introduce the disease into the tank).

 

[nsinger]

I do have some LR rubble in my refugium in my DT, that has a lot of hair algae on it. Would that help? The tang has not eaten yet - do you think it will eat hair algae? If so, would it then be even harder to get the naso to eat frozen food? I can take the algae off the rubble if you think that would help.. Thanks.

 

[abulgin]

It can't hurt so long as you aren't treating the QT with copper or other medicines. The reason your Naso isn't eating is probably because it's stressed from being in a small QT--it just may not eat until it gets into the display. Unfortunately, tangs are very susceptible to crypt, so this is not one of those situations where you should just take your chances by throwing the fish in the display without the full 4-6 week quarantine period. Try hanging some dried nori on a clip in the QT to see if that helps. I'm not sure if Nasos eat hair algae. They are generally good eaters, so I don't think you're going to have problems getting it to eat flake, frozen, etc. once it's in the display, assuming it's healthy to start with.

 

[nsinger]

I am not treating with anything. I hope it doesn't wait to eat till it gets into the QT because that will be about 4 weeks! I tried the nori soaked in garlic on a clip, he just snubbed his nose at it.

Later today I will try binding some garlic soaked nori to my fake coral.

As far a water changes - should I do 50% changes daily as long as there is any ammonia present?

 

[Megalodon]

I like to add a lot of base rock to my q tank and cycle it with pure cleaning ammonia prior to adding fish. This will ensure enough bacteria grow to handle the sudden load of newly-added fish.

 

[abulgin]

Too late to cycle the tank now. You should do at least 50% water changes--ammonia, in any amount, and even more so nitrite is bad for your fish/toxic. The problem is that by doing water changes, you're keeping the cycle from really happening, but it's a catch-22--do you allow the tank to cycle while the fish is in the tank (bad) or really slow the process by changing water. I think the latter is better in your situation. Nasos aren't cheap. Next time, set your QT up a week or so in advance and "feed" it with a pinch of flake food every day. Also, when you're done with this QT, keep your filter media in your display sump when not in use--that way, you always have an established filter media to drop in your QT when you get it up and running for a new addition. You might want to buy some Bio-Spira from your LFS and dump it in your QT to help boost the bacteria culture. It's expensive but the only "bacteria in a bottle" that works, IMO.

 

[nsinger]

I do have some non-live rock in my basement. I didn't put it in the QT because I was concerned that if I do have to treat with copper, I would then have to take it out of the QT and there goes a bunch of bacteria. But if I put in base rock, will I then have to remove that if I treat with copper?

I had that same concern with putting in LR rubble to my QT - that if I do treat with medications I would have to remove it and there goes a lot of my bacteria.

 

[nsinger]

As far as the cycling - I had been told by 2 people (none of you) that all I had to do was the DT water and the HOB in the DT sump for 4-5 days and that I'd be ready to go - so that's what I did. My naso is expensive - he's a male blond - so I really don't want to stress him out.

I don't have the option of going to a LFS.

Should I just dump some LR into the QT now? I would be happy to dump the LR if I have to treat the fish.

 

[abulgin]

You don't "have" to remove the base rock from your QT if you treat, but just understand that it will be "ruined" so to speak because it will absorb the copper/medicines in the QT water. Copper is going to kill your bacteria, whether it's in your filter media or your LR. That's why I said to use LR that you don't care about keeping (because you'll have to chuck it once you're done medicating).

 

[nsinger]

OK. Then I'll put in some LR rubble. Thanks.

 

[nsinger]

Sorry, another question. If I have to treat for ich, and use hyposalinity, should I get rid of the LR when I start the treatment?

 

[Lotus99]

Yes, you should get rid of the rock if you're treating for ich. Don't put it back in your DT for 8 weeks.

I had a small ammonia spike in my QT. I did water changes and used Amquel to keep it safe for the fish. I read to use an Ammonia Alert badge, and that certainly helped monitor the ammonia in the tank (but also do liquid tests).

 

[abulgin]

Wait! If all you're doing to treat ich is hyposalinity, you don't need to replace your rubble. The only reason to replace the LR in QT is if you're using copper or other medicines, because the medicine will be absorbed by the LR. If all you're using is hypo, then you don't need to replace the LR. The reason people tell you not to use LR in QT is that they assume you're treating with someting--the LR is basically unusable after that. If you're not adding anything to the tank, however, the LR remains good, and I would keep it in your QT.

 

[alpha0r]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12606163#post12606163 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by nsinger
As far as the cycling - I had been told by 2 people (none of you) that all I had to do was the DT water and the HOB in the DT sump for 4-5 days and that I'd be ready to go - so that's what I did. My naso is expensive - he's a male blond - so I really don't want to stress him out.

I don't have the option of going to a LFS.

Should I just dump some LR into the QT now? I would be happy to dump the LR if I have to treat the fish.

It takes longer than 5 days to colonize all the forms of bacteria you need to a high enough density. Water changes are a great option for you now.

 

[Aquarist007]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12609063#post12609063 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by alpha0r
It takes longer than 5 days to colonize all the forms of bacteria you need to a high enough density. Water changes are a great option for you now.

I agree with the water changes to reduce the ammonia

and you can put a piece of live rock from the dt in your qt even for hyposalination--the bacteria will take a small hit but grow back again quickly
I would also really cut back on the feeding---fish eat they poop--it produces ammonia.
The best thing is to get the spirulina algae tablets from Sera--you stick one to the side of the tank and the tangs peck at it all day--little to know mess or waste adding up in the tank

 

[tmz]

I use seeded crushed coral (argonite substarate) in the filter bag of the hob and in a small tuppeware tray at the bottom of the tank. Works better than a seeded sponge for me and I don't mind throwing it away when I'm done with it.It will absorb some copper if used which makes it necessary to test closely and supplement the copper that is absorbed. Absorbing media you use(rock,substrate etc.) shoud not be put back into your reef system not only because they will leech back medications but also because they may carry in disease.

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12606165#post12606165 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by abulgin
You don't "have" to remove the base rock from your QT if you treat, but just understand that it will be "ruined" so to speak because it will absorb the copper/medicines in the QT water. Copper is going to kill your bacteria, whether it's in your filter media or your LR. That's why I said to use LR that you don't care about keeping (because you'll have to chuck it once you're done medicating).

I'd like to get the facts straight on copper. It will not destroy your denitrifying bacteria in my experience. I have used it a therapuetic levels on many occasions with no discernible effect on the qt tanks ability to maintain zero ammonia.In a previous post I asked for a source for this notion since I don't believe it to be true and you state it as fact..
The only caveat I have ever seen regarding copper and denitrifying bacteriais in the manufacturer's instructions for Aquarium System's Sea Cure Copper treatment.
" Efects of Copper on Biological Filtration: Copper treatments may initially cao a drop in the effeicency of the biological filter. Generally this drop is less than %20.....Normal denitrification will resume once the bacterial bed develops a tolerance to the copper"

A less than %20 decrease should not even be noticeable in a clean ,low biolaoad qt tank. Remeber bacteria only live about 24 hours and adapt quickly to a variety of conditions including copper and hyposalinity. For the later a 2 day sg downward adjustment period is favored to allow for any needed adjustment since the bacteria can't osmoregulate.

Please refrain from making absolute statements without hard factual data.

 

[otrlynn]

To chime in with a comment and question...I have five fish in a 29 gallon hospital tank (starting hypo for ich). I put filters with filter pads that had been in my main tank for 10 or more days in the hospital tank. After a little more than 2 days I had an ammonia spike that nearly killed my fish, I was up 'til 2 a.m. doing water changes. Moral of the story? Feed lightly and check for ammonia frequently! This morning I put a few small pieces of live rock from my DT in the hospital tank. I'm not planning on doing copper. Can these pieces of rock be added back into the tank after the 6-8 weeks needed to eradicate ich. I have read that one should not put the rock back in the DT because of the risk of carrying disease back to the DT. However the point of the hypo is to kill the ich parasite--so there really shouldn't be any left on the rock that has been in hypo. Thought?

 

[tmz]

If not medicated the rock should be ok. However, even though the time frame to rid a tank of ich is commonly accepted as 6 weeks,some cysts have remained viable without hatching for up to 72 days. Hypo as copper only kills th free swimming stage,so there may be a very small risk with rock reintroduced after 6 weeks.