question about LFS etiquette

[funkehouse]

Hello all,
Obviously im fairly new, hence posting in this part of the forum, I no tank yet but hope to have one very soon.
I was in a store the other day and they had some Live Rock, i wanted to look at it closer and see what shapes and stuff they had.
Is it ok at most places to touch the live rock and pick it up? or is it hands off until you are ready to buy it? just not sure what the normal process is. i will be building a smaller tank, about 20-30 gallons most likely and will need smaller pieces, but i want to get nice shapes not just a bunch of round baseball sizes. Just trying to get any info i can on selecting rock. I dont want to go to the store and put my hand in the tank and have some guy run at me screaming "what the hell are you doing putting your hands in there!" or something like that.


one more thing, i asked an employee at the same store if the Clownfish they were selling were True or False Perculas. and the LFS guys said, they are all the same. I said i thought there is a difference between real Perculas and the Ocellaris clownfish?? they have a different name, slightly different banding dont they? and he said "no, they used to think that they were different years ago, but its all the same fish, dont believe everything you read on the internet" ??!!!!

im thinking that the LFS is an idiot, could i be right?? i know im a Noob, but im not a complete idiot, he is dead wrong about this right?!

Thanks for the help everyone !! i appreciate that you all help us Noobs with silly questions like mine !

 

[Jstdv8]

My LFS's either would like for you to ask them to pick them up or they leave gloves next to the tank. You can't really have people going in and sticking thier hands in the water. nothing to prevent some idiot with lotion on thier hands (or worse) to go stickingt hier hands in the tank)
That being said if its a good fish store and you become pals usually they give you alot more leniencey becuase they know what you are doing.

 

[SwampyBill]

First off, Welcome To Reef Central! You're in the right place to learn about this incredible addiction, er, hobby. Most stores don't mind if you dig through the LR; but you might ask first. You're absolutely right, there are differences in percula & ocellaris clownfish. Personally, I'd be leery of anything that LFS guy says now; & look around for other stores...

 

[oscarslr]

Ask one of the employees to weigh a few pieces for to give you a good idea of prices and different shapes. This should give you the opportunity to point a few out that you would like to see and gives the LFS a reason to do that for a future sale.

 

[ludnix]

They should be happy to pull out any rocks you're interested in and weigh them for you. There are hybrids of ocellaris and percula, but I doubt that's what you're LFS was talking about. They probably are just misinformed.

 

[jeff@zina.com]

Personally, I'd be leery of anything that LFS guy says now; & look around for other stores...

Might also check the other employees. We have an LFS where one guy is a total expert at the fish and inverts but couldn't tell an acropora coral from mushroom coral. Which is fine, except the coral expert doesn't work weekends.

Jeff

 

[Slafav]

The two LFS in my area have different policies in live rock handling, so just ask.

As far as the clownfish info goes, I'm betting he is just misinformed, as that is not a huge mistake to make. What I like to do to my LFS employees, and Petco as well, is ask questions that I already know the answer to and see what they say. Not super hard questions, but ethical ones. So when a Petco employee tells me that Humu trigger will do fine in my 20L, I can thank him for his help and tell him I'll call if I need something.

Like Jeff said, he may be a "coral guy" instead of a "fish guy". I know I can't tell the difference between many corals that "coral guys" can.

 

[timistim]

The two LFS in my area have different policies in live rock handling, so just ask.

As far as the clownfish info goes, I'm betting he is just misinformed, as that is not a huge mistake to make. What I like to do to my LFS employees, and Petco as well, is ask questions that I already know the answer to and see what they say. Not super hard questions, but ethical ones. So when a Petco employee tells me that Humu trigger will do fine in my 20L, I can thank him for his help and tell him I'll call if I need something.

Like Jeff said, he may be a "coral guy" instead of a "fish guy". I know I can't tell the difference between many corals that "coral guys" can.

This is exactly what I do, that or I will hang around and listen to answers to others questions. That can be very telling. Also see if there are any people in the hobby in your area that are on this forum. They will know the stores well and even tell you the people to speak with.

 

[Angel*Fish]

While it's nice to know that the guy netting your fish knows something about the hobby, the main thing is whether you can count on the owner of the store to provide you with healthy, properly caught (and when possible tank bred) specimens.

Do NOT rely on LFS for information. Do the research yourself. Even if they are extremely knowledgeable they can't know every little thing about your tank, your plans for your tank and all of the live stock they sell.

Btw, ask them not to use a net when possible.

 

[gweston]

Best advice I ever got...

Go into the store informed. Don't take the word of the LFS as fact. Know your fish before you buy them.. not based on what the sales person tells you. I double and triple check everything

Also, there are various clown species and they do have their own idiosyncrasies, behaviors, preferences (anemone types, etc). There are true percs, false percs (occellaris), maroons, skunks, etc etc. True and Occelaris percs do look and behave quite similarly however... with Occellaris supposedly being the most docile of the lot.

 

[syrinx]

Using a good pet shop/or dedicated reefer is better than broadcasting for 1000 different opinions of people-at least for the new aquarist. I agree with angel fish-you need a person or two to help- that know exactly your tank setup and skill level. Doing book research will give you information from experts more often than not, as opposed to desk jockies spending company time online. Don`t get me wrong- there is great advice to be had here- but newbies are often confused be well meaning advice from people that don`t know the tank or situation. Look to your local aquarium club for a mentor.

 

[Angel*Fish]

I like the mentor idea too, but just remember there's no substitute for learning and gaining a full understanding yourself. I've seen people with mentors get in way over their heads because they don't understand at all what's going on with their tank and livestock. In other words, you don't want a mentor who's just going to tell you what to do - they need to also explain why. And in my experience, the LFS is the last place on earth you want to look for a mentor

I think a great place to start is the stickies in the New to Hobby Forum, Fish Forum and Anemone forum.

And this is my favorite thing about cycling now: Myth 15: Concepts about Nitrification, Stocking Orders, and the New Tank

 

[cr500_af]

I have total respect for somebody who works in retail who doesn't mind saying, "I don't know, but I'll find out for you". I can even forgive a misinformed person... right up until the "don't believe everything you read on the internet" part. I'd love to see you read up on the clownfish, examine the ones they have and (with a big smile) tell the guy which they have... but I'm entertained easily.

Seriously, though, don't write that LFS off just yet, but take whatever you are told there with a grain of salt until you can verify what you are told. If you do that you won't get burned, even if they try to.

 

[funkehouse]

Thanks everyone, i really appreciate all the info ! exactly what i was looking for.
Love this site !!

 

[Angel*Fish]

I have total respect for somebody who works in retail who doesn't mind saying, "I don't know, but I'll find out for you". I can even forgive a misinformed person... right up until the "don't believe everything you read on the internet" part. I'd love to see you read up on the clownfish, examine the ones they have and (with a big smile) tell the guy which they have... but I'm entertained easily.

Seriously, though, don't write that LFS off just yet, but take whatever you are told there with a grain of salt until you can verify what you are told. If you do that you won't get burned, even if they try to.

The reason I write the LFS out of the advice loop is
1) Even if they're well intentioned, they are often completely wrong or working off of yesterday's info
2) They may have very structured, set rules about what they are supposed to tell you that the owner has determined will make him the most money. Many employees learn all they know about reef tanks from the owner. I know of one store who only hires women and they are trained in "the way".
3) The LFS employees almost always operate under a desire to please the customer and most of the customers they're used to are not of the "good things happen slowly in a reef tank" philosophy. They deal with customers all day who want fish now. So they are on the defensive and trying to give you an answer that won't discourage you from walking out without buying something. How do you think cycling the tank with live fish ever got started in the first place?

 

[Chris27]

Your LFS wasn't wrong in saying don't believe everything you read on the internet, maybe just a little pig headed. You should get a majority of your information from published reference material, some examples are books by Robert Fenner, Baensch, or Burgess. Published material is backed by the author and loaded with references from reliable sources.

Any wing nut can log on to the internet and preach to their hearts desire, but it takes a real expert to draft and publish a book. While I'm not implying that Reef Central isn't loaded to the gills with experienced and educated people, I am sure that for every one person who knows what they are talking about, there are five others who can't spell anemone, let alone describe the necessary elements of keeping them healthy.

 

[Angel*Fish]

First of all you exaggerate about the bad info on RC. If a newbie posts in the New to Hobby forum, there are usually very experienced hobbyists in there making sure bad advice gets corrected.

Second - good luck getting most of your practical info from books. They were up to date when written, but a lot has changed since then. At least make sure you get an updated version. I don't know what R. Fenner put in his 2008 updated version, but it would be a sad thing to grab hold of one of the 1997 printings and use that at the last word on the hobby. Even some 2008 info is going to outdated by now.

And then there are Scott Michael books that give lots of very valuable information and I am grateful to have them, but some have crazy tank size recommendations like a 20 g for a flame angel. I've heard that he meant in order to simply sustain life or something like that, but practically everyone on the planet agrees that a much bigger tank is needed. H. Shultz recommends 55g minimum, and 40 for the smaller argi species.


That's not meant in anyway to imply that you shouldn't buy as many books as you can get your hands on. I have all the Michael, Baensch, Borneman, Fenner, Sprung books and more. They are falling apart from overuse. At least the info in books was usually good when written and often still is depending on the subject. Obviously some things are facts and never change.


At the LFS you're there with the guy and no one to say he's wrong. It's a conflict of interest situation and you are right there at the purchase point. That's the least ideal circumstance to make a decision.

 

[Sk8r]

And don't be too snowed by reference books, either: look at the copyright date. If it's not been updated since 2003, you're not getting the latest info.
Writers, authors, whatever, come at all levels of skill. Some of the best do their own research. A number of the people going under screen names on RC actually do write in the hobby, and some are active research scientists, who know more than you'll find in the books...because information in a research operation changes with experience, and it takes a year to get a book out, let alone write it. So any book in a changing field tends to concentrate first on basics, and then won't tend to have the cutting edge of research and practice.

 

[stingythingy45]

Anybody that truly loves this hobby will be reading and visiting all kinds of websites and purchasing books.You'll be able to compare info and come to a conclusion if it's valid or not.
One must also keep in mind that some things have changed in the hobby over the last several years.

 

[svejil]

+1 with Chris27. Books are very good references, and still contain pertinent information. Here is something to consider when assuming that dated material may be wrong. How many times have folks been duped into trying the latest most innovative technology, only to find out that there were unintended consequences that only come to light after years of experience. I do believe that keeping up with technology is important, however printed reference materials are great.

Also I do believe that one needs to take all info. (on the net, at the LFS, and even print) for what its worth. In the end, everyone needs to take the time to do their own research, and make an informed decision on what they are doing / wanting. I can't tell you, how many times I have logged on to forums to see advice given out that is "opinion", and in many cases the worst advice possible. A well written / backed by experience, "Sticky" is a different matter, and most contain accurate and reliable information.

To state categorically: "Don't believe / trust your LFS", is just flat out wrong. I happen to frequent two LFS, where in one the guy is not very reliable, but has on occassion a nice offering. The second LFS is outstanding, with several having advanced degrees in Marine Biology / Chemistry. Their employees are also very advanced IMO, and quite often discourage scenarios where they know the hobbyist is likely to fail.

The net has its place, but there are great LFS out there with a lot of knowledgeable people, and the approach of "trust - then veirfy" is certainly appropriate in this case.

SV