Quick Bean Animal overflow question

The full siphon sits lower than the open stand pipe, so that it will do all the job beofre the open channel function.

Per beanAnimal website:
The Open Channel (right) standpipe is equipped with an airline that is attached to the high water line in the overflow box
 
The original design the bulkheads are all even. Some people have modified the design and have placed the full siphon bulkhead lower down.
 
I have mine three in a row, no problems at all, it takes less then 90 sec. for fullsiphon to become fully operational.
 
Is the siphon standpipe opening sitting lower than the open channel standpipe opening (like this picture appears to be http://www.beananimal.com/media/4070/standpipe-close.jpg) or are they sitting even (like this picture appears to be http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx) ?

The bulkheads are all at the same level. Fairly recently, issues where reported that there was a starting issue, for some systems, that did not fall into the "mold" or pattern of mistakes made in the implementation of the system.

This set pattern is: Pipe outlets more than 1" below the water level in the sump, (number 1,) the air vent line too low in the overflow (number 2,) air leaks in the main siphon (number 3,) and horizontal runs under tank (number 4.) If these four mistakes are avoided, there is no reason in the world for the system to not start as it should, showing up as an unusual delay in the main siphon kicking in (sudden drop in water level) or the main siphon not kicking in at all, and excessive flow through the open channel. It is perfectly normal for the system to take a minute or so to kick in fully, but much longer than that, there is a mistake in the individual implementation. There are no mystery casues for start up issues, and the system implemented as designed, does not have inherent issues either in normal operation, startup, or in one of the several failsafe modes. As a single solution to a very old problem, it does not get any better. Simply put, if you ignore opinions on the desgin, build the system as designed, you are not going to have problems with it, and there is certainly no reason to deviate from the design, by raising the open channel higher than the other two holes.

Back to the "mysterious" startup issue. Most systems that show this issue, along with having one or more of the big 4 going on, have 1.5" bulkheads, and are running rather low flow rates e.g. running way below 1200 - 1500gph, at around 200 gph perhaps up into 400gph, maybe even more. (Based on provided information on the system.) Statistically, there are very few systems that are actually flowing higher than 1000gph, and even fewer getting up into the 1500gph range.

A 1" bulkhead will allow, depending on pipe size, up to around 1500gph, with a normal head height of around 24" + with 36" upping the value quite a bit. Therefore, the use of 1.5" bulkheads should be reserved for systems that target above 1500gph, and perhaps even 2000gph.

As a possible fix, Bean suggested raising the open channel by a half an inch. The logic is too increase the head pressure on the siphon, making it easier for the siphon to purge the air. The fix does work, and with a system taking for instance 5 minutes to fully start, the start up time drops to ~ 1 minute, which is the normal startup time for the system (IME anyway.) I would suspect, that the lower the flow rate, (ignoring bulkhead size) the more advantage there would be to this modification, but I have not investegated the thought. This of course all assumes that there are no other implementation errors, though most often it is not just a single problem, rather multiple problems with the implementation.

That being said, if the system is built as designed, such modification is unnecessary, and just complicates the process of implementation, and adds another layer of confusion, to a system that should not be confusing, and is simple to implement...that is the whole point to the system, and the manner in which it was presented. Is the actual startup time all that critical? I don't think so. If it takes a minute, so what, if it takes 5 minutes, so what...so long as the system starts fully, and the fail safe systems operate properly, and when they should, the startup time is irrelevant. It is just a forum debate point, with little to gain...
 
Thanks everyone. I do have 1.5" bulkheads but am using an ampmaster (3800gph minus head) so I should have well over 2000gph flow. I plan to make them all the same and then if I do have problems, I can always make the siphon 1/2" lower. I've got some tricky plumbing I need to do...
 
Terminate the open channel further below the surface than the siphon and it will start much faster. The additional back pressure in the open channel will force the water down the siphon. I use 1 inch and it starts quick. My 2 cents.
 
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Terminate the open channel further below the surface than the siphon and it will start much faster. The additional back pressure in the open channel will force the water down the siphon. I use 1 inch and it starts quick. My 2 cents.

Where did this information come from? This information is not accruate nor is it valid....Doing this could easily cause the open channel to not start properly, if it is necessary that it trip to siphon mode, to prevent a flood. All three pipes should terminate in the sump, 1" or less below the water level in the sump. This is made very clear in the instructions. This insures uniform and predictable startup of all three pipes under various conditions. The open channel in addition to providing a self adjustment feature, is a part of the system failsafe. If the operation of the open channel is altered, it may no longer provide the necessary fail safe. All issues with this drain system are due to a failure to follow the simple instructions.

The system works as designed, and so far there have been no design improvements that are actually improvements, rather they are mis-implementations, based on erroneous or mis-information. Such modifications make the system unpredictable, whether they seem to work or not.
 
Where did this information come from? This information is not accruate nor is it valid....Doing this could easily cause the open channel to not start properly, if it is necessary that it trip to siphon mode, to prevent a flood. All three pipes should terminate in the sump, 1" or less below the water level in the sump. This is made very clear in the instructions. This insures uniform and predictable startup of all three pipes under various conditions. The open channel in addition to providing a self adjustment feature, is a part of the system failsafe. If the operation of the open channel is altered, it may no longer provide the necessary fail safe. All issues with this drain system are due to a failure to follow the simple instructions.

The system works as designed, and so far there have been no design improvements that are actually improvements, rather they are mis-implementations, based on erroneous or mis-information. Such modifications make the system unpredictable, whether they seem to work or not.

I did not recommend terminating any drains more than an inch below the surface. This is my own experimentation, with my own system and you can take it as a suggestion or leave it. Telling people that they are doing it wrong or they should just live with the system the way it is, is not very helpful. Ultimately people will have to experiment with their own system until it works the way they like it and find acceptable. People can experiment with my suggestion, or not.

Ex. If someone has already drilled their holes, and they aren't perfectly lined up, they may have to do something else to compensate. Telling people that thy screwed up the "ideal" implementation, and they should redo their whole system might be unreasonable. Instructing someone, and helping them learn are different concepts.
 
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I did not recommend terminating any drains more than an inch below the surface. This is my own experimentation, with my own system and you can take it as a suggestion or leave it. Telling people that they are doing it wrong or they should just live with the system the way it is, is not very helpful. Ultimately people will have to experiment with their own system until it works the way they like it and find acceptable. People can experiment with my suggestion, or not.

Ex. If someone has already drilled their holes, and they aren't perfectly lined up, they may have to do something else to compensate. Telling people that thy screwed up the "ideal" implementation, and they should redo their whole system might be unreasonable. Instructing someone, and helping them learn are different concepts.

The OP asked a simple question, and there is only one answer to that question: The holes are all drilled at the same level. There are not multiple answers and a 1000 opinions on which one is correct. The system works as designed, and it works better than any other drain system to date. It may not always be the best design in certain situations, however modifications to this system, may cause the system to malfunction, and modifications from the original design are discouraged.

Your recommendation ("Terminate the open channel further below the surface than the siphon and it will start much faster.") is one of those that will directly affect the operation of the system, and the interaction between the siphon and open channel. Such contradictory information was responsible for the widespread mis-implementation of the "herbie." I discussed one of the possible problems with the recommendation that was made.

There are literally 1000's of these systems in use now, and I spend a great deal of time and energy troubleshooting problems with them. Invariably, the problem is casued by an implementation error, or put in less fancy words, not following the directions...whether it was not clear to them, based on an opinion they read somewhere, or they wanted to do it "their way," really isn't the point. The problem exists, and the solution is well defined; the solution will be based on the symptons of the system, not some hypthetical situation.
 
When I first started, I rushed into the build of my tank with less knowledge than I'd have wanted (hindsight bla bla bla 20/20).

I was advised that my system would not work with the bean configuration. And this was told to me after I had bought the tank. I could do nothing and no help was given. So I had to really look into how the mechanics of the drain worked.

Well I now have a perfect BA system that works flawlessly. Granted, you have to use your head and get it as close as you can to the original design, but "some" variants and modifications can work just as well as the "original" design.

I've actually just stopped trying to help with the BA because I know my arguments or opinions will be credited with "you're lucky" or "you're one in a million".

Again, if you really read up on how all this works and you implement it the way it was designed then you should walk away with a rather satisfying outcome.
 
When I first started, I rushed into the build of my tank with less knowledge than I'd have wanted (hindsight bla bla bla 20/20).

I was advised that my system would not work with the bean configuration. And this was told to me after I had bought the tank. I could do nothing and no help was given. So I had to really look into how the mechanics of the drain worked.

Well I now have a perfect BA system that works flawlessly. Granted, you have to use your head and get it as close as you can to the original design, but "some" variants and modifications can work just as well as the "original" design.

I've actually just stopped trying to help with the BA because I know my arguments or opinions will be credited with "you're lucky" or "you're one in a million.

Some people just can't be reasoned with. What can you do?
 
Some people just can't be reasoned with. What can you do?

Who is it really that cannot be reasoned with?

The point is that "slow restart" is not an issue when the system is setup as designed. On extremely low flow systems, the system is not needed and/or the siphon pipe could be downsized.

In almost every case the "restart" issue is related to an air leak, excess discharge depth, or a system that deviates from the published design. Once the basic system design is changed from the published plans, all bets are off.

Your opinion, or suggestion, or recommendation changes the basic system design, and is a change from the published plans. In what other ways did your system deviate from the published plans, or what mistakes were made, or what advice did you actually follow? If your system has/had the slow start/restart problem, the reason it had the problem in the first place is pretty obvious is it not?

For the record, I cannot recall or find you posting an issue in Bean's thread, concerning a slow start issue, or any other issue with the system.

If someone has a situation, that prohibits them from "building as designed," that is one of the reasons Bean's thread exists: to insure that folks have the best chance of having a drain system that works right the first time. In some cases, we will recommend against using the BA drain system, without major modifications to the tank itself.

None of the above is unreasonable in any way.

The object is to prevent problems in the first place, not present solutions to problems that don't exist. That type of thing creates more confusion, and is exactly how mis-information gets started.

Things that are unreasonable are asking questions and arguing with the answer (not the case here) and making recommendations that are not consistent with the design and operation of the system, and then making it "personal" because the response was based on the published system, how it functions, fluid dynamics, and nullifies their opinion. These are also the things that can burn the bridge to the help they are looking for... :)
 
It is a bit redundant to add adaptations into a system that is starting from scratch and hasn't been tested to see if it even requires adaptation. It's just adding complexity and extra work for the sake of complexity and extra work. :crazy1:
 
Some people just can't be reasoned with. What can you do?


Who is it really that cannot be reasoned with?

If you review the text I quoted you'll find he was told his system could not work with a BA overflow. I don't find that reasonable or helpful. I'm glad he figured out how to make it work for him. Side note, if someone is being reasonable they don't usually have to defend their reasonableness.
 
If you review the text I quoted you'll find he was told his system could not work with a BA overflow. I don't find that reasonable or helpful. I'm glad he figured out how to make it work for him. Side note, if someone is being reasonable they don't usually have to defend their reasonableness.

I pointed out the unreasonablness of your recommendation, as was just pointed out by another, for a system that has not yet been built, that has no issues. That is detrimental to the system in general as it causes confusion, and mis-information... I am sorry you are not happy about that, but the integrity of the information concerning this drain system is more important to a larger number of people... :)
 
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