Rant about one of our LFS...

[Cdodge1]

That's a tough comparison to make as fruit doesn't need to be quarantined for several weeks to be treated. It's treated with pesticides in the field where it's grown.

The reason is that from a financial position, for a store to be able to "float" that kind of money for that kind of time period is unrealistic and unsustainable from a practical point of view. (I'm a business development manager).

Consider what the cost of corals would be if theoretically, a store was able to do this. Consider the cost of fruit, if the farmers and/or stores couldn't sell their livestock for 6 weeks after harvesting (never mind the lack of stock and assortment). I'm not going to get into details of a business plan to demonstrate, but I think you get the picture.

Now if people were wiling to pay 200-500% more (at least), I'm sure the stores wouldn't mind doing this for you. But my guess would be that given one store practicing this method versus everyone else, customers are going to save themselves the money and take the extra time to dip them on their own (or take their chances).

It's one of those "in a perfect world..." Scenarios.

You bring up some great points. Cost, being the biggest factor.
I get the picture of what you are saying. Again, it's obviously a flawed comparison. Fruit or almost anything I can think of will be inherently different. But the essence of what I am saying still rings true.

If we wouldn't accept a disease ridden or parasite infested (or otherwise flawed) "whatever", whether it be fruit, a puppy from the pet store, food, plants, etc... why do we accept it in this hobby?

I work as a production & testing planner for one of the largest aerospace companies in the world. I have a finance degree. I'm well aware how a general business operates, so believe me, I see the difficulties of what I am proposing. I also see the solutions, however. The goal is to deliver to the customer a perfect product. Particularly when we have the means to prevent flawed products. The logistics of how we get that perfect product is what gives us a competitive advantage. There is no margin for error or an otherwise imperfect product.

But we (the consumer) will continue to receive sub-par products as long as we continue to accept them. This is the major point I want to convey.

It's a controversial topic, I know. And I'm glad we can discuss it without tearing at each others throats haha.

 

[plyle02]

Some of the most advanced hobbyist's have had AEFW, while achieving TOTM awards, not even noticing the infestation. These pests can go years without detection, as strong flow keeps numbers in check. However, once a colony grows, and the flow does not reach the internal base of the colony, due to branch growth, the AEFW now can infect underneath inside the coral without detection, until populations advance to the point that the hobbyist can clearly detect through observation. AEFW are extremely hard to detect, and can make it through dips, quarantine, and observation. So to put this on the aquaculturist, mariculturist, or wild collector would be difficult, mainly because the latter two have shipping to contend with. The aquaculturer has the best chance, however, this could still be a challenging task. So do we really think the store has time for this? I personally prefer fresh cut frags that I can dip before mounting, this has given me the best opportunity for success with SPS. All of that being said, I personally do not feel most stores even dip, so put your reef into YOUR hands and not rely on a store, dealer, local hobbyist, or the OCEAN to provide you with pest free corals. Also, to comment on your "rant", if you read through many threads, some of these $150 corals can be arranged by local hobbyists' for $20 a branch, lol...

 

[EuroGTI]

Morning everyone!

This is Alex from TSA. I run the Online sales department, and a lot of you locals know me as a big SPS nut! I usually would not reply to something like this as it can seem a business is trying to "defend" themselves, but I want to chime in here briefly.

Cdodge1. First I would like to apologize for what sounds like a frustrating shopping experience. We really try to make every customer happy that walks in the door. Again, I deeply apologize for any incovinience. We value your business and would hate to loose you as a customer. If you would like to chat, feel free to give me a call at the store.

That being said, I want to touch on a few quick points.

I will agree that the tanks right now have a pretty big NFS section. The NFS section is actually the first part of QT on newly aquired designer pieces. We put all sps and zoas through a very strong QT before going into the farm, or show tank. This is something we are working on. We are setting up dedicated QT tanks that will house all incoming grow out pieces. That will resolve the NFS section. We fully understand customers want to see coral that's for sale in the retail tanks. I think a lot of stores have this problem, but we are definitely working on it!!

Last thing I will touch on is the $150 frag. The coral Cdodge1 is referring to is Reef Raft Orange Passion. I'm sorry you felt this was overpriced, but this is actually a very nice coral! Many people sell it for much more!

We appreciate the feedback and will take everything into consideration. Again apologies to Cdodge1 and hope we get another chance. Thanks guys!!

 

[eg8r210]

Sorry, I'm not here to argue.

I'll quote myself here...
" AEFW shouldn't even be present in the store... so they shouldn't be on fresh cuts or healed cuts."
This is a 100% accurate statement. I didn't say that any store in town was AEFW free, did I? Hence your comment about my experience is totally irrelevant. But please do explain why exactly parasites would not be on a freshly cut frag if it were to come out of a parasite infested tank...I don't get the logic there. Exactly how long do you think it takes for parasites to find a coral?

Whether the AEFW should or shouldn't be there is irrelevant, the fact is there is a better chance they are there than not. I was specific about the AEFW eggs for a reason when referring to why fresh cut is preferred. AEFW eggs are laid on dead skeleton and/or plugs/rocks. The eggs are not laid on the living tissue. This is why fresh cuts are more desirable. You can dip them to kill the adults and not have to worry about dipping again every week for a few weeks. This is not a "timing" issue. Most of the experienced SPS keepers I have met and talked with will literally cut the frag off a plug and toss the plug and anything that has encrusted just to limit the chance of exposure. Once the eggs get in the tank and hatch the AEFW can "swim" at that point and spread in the tank. Once they are adults they no longer release and swim around.

I'm no expert. Nor have I ever claimed to be. However, my experience level isn't the matter at hand here. It does not require an expert reef keeper to recognize poor customer service and inconsistent/ unfair pricing.

I only mentioned the experience part when I read this quote from you followed by the comment that AEFW do not belong in the store...

I agree someone new to the hobby could easily hop on a forum and complain about much these fuzzy sticks cost... and have no idea what they are talking about...I'm just not one of them.

No biggie, I don't think anyone here is an expert. Whether AEFW (or any other pest) belong there or not I was trying to convey if the LFS is stating 100% they are pest free then they would be skirting the truth. Like Pete mentioned before, nearly all the stores in town are bringing in coral, chopping them up and selling soon after. Not near enough time to fully eradicate with 100% certainty.

Considering a few others on the board, and some that I have talked with outside of the forum, were able to figure out the LFS you were referring to means your experience in the store was not a one time thing. I asked which one because I generally do not go to that LFS. Practices like this will end up killing a store so hopefully something positive comes from this thread.

 

[eg8r210]

Respectfully,

If we pay a premium for coral. Any LFS in our area has the means to properly treat & quarantine coral. More so than anyone in this hobby. It is entirely feasible to do. Livestock should be quarantined and treated before it ever meets the sales floor. People who stick up for fish stores with lazy/ poor practices only encourage this behavior.

I think you are ignoring reality or you might just not have a firm grasp on what these stores are doing. Either way, no one is sticking up for an LFS with lazy/poor practices, we are trying to pass on some common sense information. Pests are there and many get by the QT process. Most stores cannot afford to purchase $1000's worth of coral and sit on them for 4-5 weeks while they kill of pests.

 

[eg8r210]

I work as a production & testing planner for one of the largest aerospace companies in the world. I have a finance degree. I'm well aware how a general business operates, so believe me, I see the difficulties of what I am proposing.

Good chance we are coworkers. :dance:

 

[Cdodge1]

I think you are ignoring reality or you might just not have a firm grasp on what these stores are doing. Either way, no one is sticking up for an LFS with lazy/poor practices, we are trying to pass on some common sense information. Pests are there and many get by the QT process. Most stores cannot afford to purchase $1000's worth of coral and sit on them for 4-5 weeks while they kill of pests.

Right on, I think this thread got a kinda derailed with the whole pest issue. TSA doesn't have any major pest issues, and I hope anyone seeing this thread doesn't think that's what I was griping about. Just the customer service aspect really. I understand reality and dip corals etc.. (I just dove into some wishful thinking on a reef-pest free world lol) I do try to practice safe reefing :lol:

 

[Tenshoa]

I think you are ignoring reality or you might just not have a firm grasp on what these stores are doing. Either way, no one is sticking up for an LFS with lazy/poor practices, we are trying to pass on some common sense information. Pests are there and many get by the QT process. Most stores cannot afford to purchase $1000's worth of coral and sit on them for 4-5 weeks while they kill of pests.

Agreed. I understand that people expect the best from a LFS, and we all should. From a logistical point of view, consider this. Each time a LFS brings in a shipment, those frags would HAVE to be quarantined in a separate tank. You cannot just put them in a specified QT. The reason being is that it will contaminate the process of the previously quarantined corals. Some of these stores get shipments once or twice a week. So that would mean that for a 6 week quarantine process, they would need 6-12 extra tanks that are independently plumbed!

And that doesn't even take into consideration the time and effort in dipping and eradicating AEFW. Have you ever done it? I have. It made me have suicidal tendencies lol. There's a reason that so many people quit the hobby after finding they have AEFW.

 

[Cdodge1]

Some of the most advanced hobbyist's have had AEFW, while achieving TOTM awards, not even noticing the infestation. These pests can go years without detection, as strong flow keeps numbers in check. However, once a colony grows, and the flow does not reach the internal base of the colony, due to branch growth, the AEFW now can infect underneath inside the coral without detection, until populations advance to the point that the hobbyist can clearly detect through observation. AEFW are extremely hard to detect, and can make it through dips, quarantine, and observation. So to put this on the aquaculturist, mariculturist, or wild collector would be difficult, mainly because the latter two have shipping to contend with. The aquaculturer has the best chance, however, this could still be a challenging task. So do we really think the store has time for this? I personally prefer fresh cut frags that I can dip before mounting, this has given me the best opportunity for success with SPS. All of that being said, I personally do not feel most stores even dip, so put your reef into YOUR hands and not rely on a store, dealer, local hobbyist, or the OCEAN to provide you with pest free corals. Also, to comment on your "rant", if you read through many threads, some of these $150 corals can be arranged by local hobbyists' for $20 a branch, lol...

Hey plyle,

That is definitely something to think about with AEFW. I think that LFS, supplier, collector should do the best they can within reason. I know nothing is ever perfect, but if the wild collector did their part, and the wholesaler did their part, and finally the LFS did their part, there would be significantly less problems. There is a lot to consider with this topic. It is not just one big problem. It is the summation of many poor practices. I think as hobbyists, we should be pushing for a high quality product. ..However I think another thread is in order for this topic.

My comment on the fresh cuts was not relevant to my rant, nor was it what I was upset about. I should have left that out completely. It's a preference of mine to have frags that have begun to encrust the plug. I assumed that it was a more popular to want encrusting frags but it appears the opposite is true.

I also typically don't complain about price or high-end corals...my complaint was just the inconsistent pricing I was being given from one of the salesmen on several different frags. But you're 100% right it's just as easy to get some of these frags (larger these pathetic micro-frags I see) from other hobbyists... haha

 

[Cdodge1]

Agreed. I understand that people expect the best from a LFS, and we all should. From a logistical point of view, consider this. Each time a LFS brings in a shipment, those frags would HAVE to be quarantined in a separate tank. You cannot just put them in a specified QT. The reason being is that it will contaminate the process of the previously quarantined corals. Some of these stores get shipments once or twice a week. So that would mean that for a 6 week quarantine process, they would need 6-12 extra tanks that are independently plumbed!

And that doesn't even take into consideration the time and effort in dipping and eradicating AEFW. Have you ever done it? I have. It made me have suicidal tendencies lol. There's a reason that so many people quit the hobby after finding they have AEFW.

I don't think I sound delusional here lol, but sure, we should demand the best. No system is perfect. I've battled many pests, but AEFW isn't one of them thankfully. Let's not assume that this is an "all or nothing" situation either. There is a lot that can be done within reason. It is not something that will happen overnight, for sure, but over time. But again lol, this would be a great discussion to have in another thread. I never had any issues with pests from TSA, just so no one reading this thinks I have.

 

[Tenshoa]

Edited. Nevermind lol. I misread.

 

[plyle02]

Morning everyone!

This is Alex from TSA. I run the Online sales department, and a lot of you locals know me as a big SPS nut! I usually would not reply to something like this as it can seem a business is trying to "defend" themselves, but I want to chime in here briefly.

Cdodge1. First I would like to apologize for what sounds like a frustrating shopping experience. We really try to make every customer happy that walks in the door. Again, I deeply apologize for any incovinience. We value your business and would hate to loose you as a customer. If you would like to chat, feel free to give me a call at the store.

That being said, I want to touch on a few quick points.

I will agree that the tanks right now have a pretty big NFS section. The NFS section is actually the first part of QT on newly aquired designer pieces. We put all sps and zoas through a very strong QT before going into the farm, or show tank. This is something we are working on. We are setting up dedicated QT tanks that will house all incoming grow out pieces. That will resolve the NFS section. We fully understand customers want to see coral that's for sale in the retail tanks. I think a lot of stores have this problem, but we are definitely working on it!!

Last thing I will touch on is the $150 frag. The coral Cdodge1 is referring to is Reef Raft Orange Passion. I'm sorry you felt this was overpriced, but this is actually a very nice coral! Many people sell it for much more!

We appreciate the feedback and will take everything into consideration. Again apologies to Cdodge1 and hope we get another chance. Thanks guys!!

Big Ups to you and TSA!!!

 

[Swirlygig]

Well peeps...welcome to the hobby! ask is pretty common...All our local stores are great...just my two cents...

Visit them and buy what you can afford...if you know how much something is worth then mention that and i am sure they will work with you. If you are not comfortable with ask....well then don't.... stick with the $20 section etc...

You guys all rock....hobbyists and store owners....it is tough to keep up with a moving supply demand target like reefing....

Just my two cents

 

[mlivvy]

I just moved here from south florida and they had the same issues there. Frag tanks in garages started popping up all over the place and some turned into full blown licensed businesses. At one point I spent over a year without visiting a LFS and you had to make an appointment to visit a garage from so many people going. In time most of the stores got the clue and fixed their issues including putting prices on ****.

 

[Rodmad]

TSA in my opinion is still the best reef shop in all central florida. Don't let a tank with a ask sign on it make u think anything bad. TSA is #1.

 

[Rodmad]

In their defense the only other thing that I think why they have these "ask" tanks is because sometimes there's all different kinds of corals in random order and obviously one might be worth than the next one.

I think that lrs should arrange the corals so they may price everything out without the need to guess or give different prices on the same pieces at different times of the day.[/QUOTE]

 

[BryanS4]

For example: Some kind of blue acro, nothing special, .5" frag was $150 he told me lol. I laughed. I remembered seeing an identical coral in another store for $40 .

Can you please point me in the direction of the other store selling RR OP for $40? I'd like to go and buy as many of them as they have in stock.

Instead of making this long drawn out post, I'd suggest knowing what you're actually trying to buy before bashing a store and saying a coral is over priced. Good luck finding that piece anywhere else for $150.

 

[naterealbig]

Reading through these posts, I think that there are a lot of very good points.

If I were CDodge, the part that would have frustrated me the most about the interaction with the LFS was the inconsistent pricing. More than anything, it underminds the trusting relationship that the hobbyist has with the store. Even for the novice with a relatively inexpensive setup, there is a lot of money that goes into these systems. I want to support local business where I can, even if it means spending more to cover their overhead, staffing etc. The tradeoff I expect however is to receive honest and accurate information, regardless of who is working there.

Additionally, there may have been a very good reason the price of the frags in one spot were different than the others. Perhaps one was maricultured while the other was wild. Maybe one had been acclimated to LED lighting. If there is a difference however in pricing, then staff should explain why. At best it is a great selling point; at worst, the customer doesn't feel like they are being bamboozled.

Next, Alex from TSA deserves a Kudos and a hand shake. Apologies and ownership in this hobby are scarce. I'd shop at this store again just for that.

As far as LFS pests go, I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation from our invert retailers to sell pest-free live stock. I maintained my 150g SPS tank pest-free with nothing more than a magnifying glass and 3 or 4 minutes for every frag I put in the system. At the bare minimum, if the store understands that there are pests on the corals, the fact should be disclosed, and affective treatment for them should be recommended and available. Assuming that the hobbyist "knows that every LFS has Red Bugs or AEFW" is a deceptive cop-out. Unfortunately, until the LFS guarantees their livestock pest-free, it is the hobbyists responsibility to inspect and treat.

 

[1Sik1500]

Dont judge our local stores based on 1 interaction. Ive shopped at all the Central Florida stores. Some of my best corals and thriving fish came from there. I agree the prices vary from store to store but i was always extremely happy with my purchases. Without a doubt i would buy from them again.