Red and Green LED's....

wow, what's making the red pop?
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. However, here's a photo from the same Japanese website that shows what a tank looks like with BlueViolet LEDs only (420nm).

violetk.jpg


For whatever reason, the greens in this photo are really bright. I'm going to try to translate this photo:

spectrum.png


Notice that for the 420nm area, the greens peak? Maybe this has something to do with reading it.

I have heard some people claiming that cyan LEDs (~500nm) make their reds pop. This could be a part of the equation. The fixture also uses Neutral White LEDs, which (as I'm sure you know) have had good success with increasing red colors to an extent.
 
thanks for all your effort, Jane.

i guess WW is out of the mix, huh?
Hm, I tried translating the image a little.

spectrum-sun-pigments.png


The orange text on the far left says "Carotene" (or "orange pigment") and the website in general talks about "fluorescent dyes" and "photosynthetic pigments" at this point of the article. With this in mind, I'm almost certain that the cyan LEDs are bringing out such vibrant red coloration (because of where the "red" line peaks on the graph). This is somewhat interesting, as many LED users have problems with their reds- maybe it's because of the lack of cyan/green? I've noticed most people have no problems with their green coloration and LEDs (as suggested by topics like this)- Royal Blue LEDs are ~450nm, and the green line on the graph peaks at this exact location. If all of this information is correct, I'm no longer convinced that the deep red LED (660nm) is necessary, as the "green line" reaches its peak right where the Royal Blue is. Now that it is known how to read the graph, it should be interesting to see what LEDs will bring out what colors.

As for the warm white LEDs... I don't think they're unnecessary (but they aren't that different than Neutral White when you mix them together with cool white). To be honest, you most likely wouldn't see any difference between the two (Warm White mixed with Cool White vs. Neutral White). It could be a good option for people looking to supplement their already made LED fixtures that use Cool White.

Sorry to kind of rant on about this- best of luck to you on any potential LED plans you might have! :wave:
 
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I think a big key that Jane touched on with this information of a "full spectrum" is ratios. These Japanese tanks look amazing but someone really has put in some effort getting the LED ratio correct...

Jane is there any info on that site about the ratios some of these tanks are using??
 
Jamie,

With all that you have stated.. what color combo on the next Vertex pad do you want to see? It seems everyone (including me) have stated they want red and UV... do you think the best request would be to be UV/Green or UV/Warm White?
I am currently hoping for a turqouise-violet combination, that would be about 490nm and 410nm. Until now, all trials and research done on corals and UV have shown that corals respond at around 400nm-405nm and not under this, which would be UV (under 400nm). If this is the case, then true UV is really superfluous, but more testing needs to be done.

I am testing red at the moment and am noting a certain amount of bleaching/paling with higher levels. This would support the idea that red light actually inhibits zooxanthellae (Dana Riddle's data somewhat supports this). An interesting situation, as, properly applied, this may allow us to control the zooxanthellae density and thus the colour of the corals. It could be problematic, as well, with ODing actually damaging th corals. Plus, many may not like the general colouration. Again, aesthetic, but this time based on some interesting results. Don't quote me on this, as it is too soon to be sure and I've only noted this on Montipora digitata, M. samarensis and another plating Monti. These have a fast metabolism and respond very quickly to light changes.

Jamie
 
Jamie,
which vertex fixture would you suggest on a 60x36x30 tank?

That is a bit longer than my tank and I use the SR260 1200mm. In general, a fixture that is within 12"/30cm of the tank length is best. There is a 60"/1500mm size, which would be about 2" longer than your tank, due to the end caps. If this is not a problem, do it, otherwise take the 48"/1200mm size. I find most of us tend to place our lowlight corals to the extreme left and right of the tank, which makes these lower light areas usefull (probably more out of habit that desire, but...)

jamie
 
That is a bit longer than my tank and I use the SR260 1200mm. In general, a fixture that is within 12"/30cm of the tank length is best. There is a 60"/1500mm size, which would be about 2" longer than your tank, due to the end caps. If this is not a problem, do it, otherwise take the 48"/1200mm size. I find most of us tend to place our lowlight corals to the extreme left and right of the tank, which makes these lower light areas usefull (probably more out of habit that desire, but...)

jamie

Thanks Jamie but what about the width??? I am concerned about the tank being 36" wide and having light drop off.
 
Thanks Jamie but what about the width??? I am concerned about the tank being 36" wide and having light drop off.

Shouldn't be a problem. As I said, my tank is about the same dimensions, 136cm x70cmx80cm or 55"x25"x30", and I have plenty of spread. The plus on the Vertex cluster system is the extremely wide spread, unlike optics which bundle the light into a smaller angle/beam, which, IMO, is not very reef-like or good for the corals, as it is like a hot shot of light. We often hear of burning with optics, partly due to the aquarist enthusiasm for light, or simply photoinhibition. Clustering creates an intense point-light source which diffuses more as in nature through the water. We see this when we compare PAR graphics between the two variations; the optics give higher PAR at the surface, but both systems give about the same PAR at 30" under the water. The gradient evens out with depth. In other words, with optics you have more variation in PAR in the same distance as with clustered LEDs. Of course, one can hang those with optic higher and get a softer effect, but why? Again, aesthetics plays a role.

Just my opinion on overall effect.
 
Jane,

nice to see the graphics on pigment wavelength response. This is an interesting area, but graphics can be misleading, as well. To get more background on pigments under light, the articles from Dana Riddle and co. lay down some interesting ground work. Maybe you've already read through them.

I've noted some fluorescent pigments respond to wavelenghts that they do not actually reflect, rather convert from another pigments wavelengths. A sort of symbiosis. Just knowing this may happen makes sorting out the right wavelengths for specific colours in corals a real challenge.

Jamie
 
jamie,

As of now, do illumina have RGB clusters or only RED LEDs available as a option?
You mantion that one unit can cover 36" wide tank..HMMM , i am not so sure about it and you tank only 25" as per you specs.. this is my great concern sincei am planning something like 72x36x24.

mike

mike
 
jamie,

As of now, do illumina have RGB clusters or only RED LEDs available as a option?
You mantion that one unit can cover 36" wide tank..HMMM , i am not so sure about it and you tank only 25" as per you specs.. this is my great concern sincei am planning something like 72x36x24.

mike

mike

I'll take the liberty in answering for Jamie... however I see him as the expert... Vertex Illuminas do not have to be purchased in the exact length of the tank... they can be purchased 12" shorter... I have done the same and no dark spots to the naked eye 6" on either side. Now I do have a narrow tank (18")... so for someone with a wider tank, this may be a different story. Common sense tells us the further away you are from the light, the less light intensity, PAR, or however you want to measure it will be negatively affected. This is even more so true when it comes to LED lights. I see it as a limitation of LED's in general, and not the Illumina itself. If money was no object, for those with super wide tanks.. I'd recommend 2 fixtures side by side length wise... but that's not practical to most people (including me).


At this time Vertex only has red auxiliary pads out right now... but they have an open ear to their customers. The beauty of this light is it is modular. Something that most people do not realize about this fixture is that it is future proof... every single pad is replaceable if new better pads come out in the future. Also between the main pads you can add 2 more channels of light, each pad have 2 different color possibilities.

I love how this thread has evolved, because I really want to know which LED colors NEED to be supplemented in to our required blues and whites. VERTEX I hope you're following this thread. Lots of great information.
 
Has anyone looked at the new coral magazine because they have a huge article on all the led technology and might help but this topic to bed. I know most of it is personal preference but what works best for the corals is the ultimate goal!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
jamie,

As of now, do illumina have RGB clusters or only RED LEDs available as a option?
You mantion that one unit can cover 36" wide tank..HMMM , i am not so sure about it and you tank only 25" as per you specs.. this is my great concern sincei am planning something like 72x36x24.

mike

mike

Bluebastion has it right. (thanks!). In your case, I would start with just the Illumina and see. You can always add the Illumilux modules, should you find the spread or PAR fall-off to the front not to your liking. Also, one could do a T5 supplement.

A RGB pad is not planned, as far as I have heard, but Vertex is interested to know what customers find interesting and usefull. Even with the current rapid exchange of information, there are many that seek their own versions of an LED solution and like to experiment. I expect we will all bark up the wrong tree at some point, but the flexibility of LEDs makes such forays of adventure at least affordable.

Also, and I can't stress this enough, one needs to acclimate their corals to any new lighting system, plus, give some time for changes to happen. Just running out and buying another LED supplement is not the answer in most cases. Nor is running a new LED unit at 100%, regardless of how high you previous PAR was. Let your tanks inhabitants adapt and keep an eye on the finer changes. Aquariums are very intricate biospheres and don't make paradigm shifts overnight. I've been following the problem LED reports, where aquarists have experienced browning of their corals, particularly Acropora. As of yet, I've noted no correlation to the LEDs themselves. Not that i rule this out, but, when apparently similar system react to LEDs so differently, one need to examine a few more parameters. I suspect part of the problem is nutrient control, coupled with the corals recovering from what may well be photoinhibition. Many aquarist have too much light over their tanks, which inhibits zooxanthellae production and keeps corals paler, but not necessarily healthier. Change the spectrum of light and we may see a zooxanthellae bloom, thus browning. This is just a supposition, at this point, and I am hoping to nail down some data to support it.

Jamie
 
thank you guys for great explanation.

How come only Vertex makes there units without optics and other companies use different optic lens?
 
Looking at the photo's and after doing more research I am thinking of modifying my build a bit. I am interested in the newer colors people are trying but can't find where to buy them. Where would be a good place to look for the Blue/Violet (SemiLED)420nm and the Cyan Rebel 500nm LED's?

Ryan
 
The red spectrum is very overpowering and has been said to actually hurt coral growth as well as increase algae growth

I was thinking about adding a few red LED's just for appearance, but I don't want to do that if it's actually going to hurt my corals, and if it will cause algae growth. where did you get that info to I would like to read it. Thanks :)
 
Looking at the photo's and after doing more research I am thinking of modifying my build a bit. I am interested in the newer colors people are trying but can't find where to buy them. Where would be a good place to look for the Blue/Violet (SemiLED)420nm and the Cyan Rebel 500nm LED's?

Ryan
I'm still looking for a source for BlueViolet LEDs (I'll have to look around a little bit more), but I have found the Cyan Rebels for sale here. Good luck on your build! :wave:

I was thinking about adding a few red LED's just for appearance, but I don't want to do that if it's actually going to hurt my corals, and if it will cause algae growth. where did you get that info to I would like to read it. Thanks :)

I'm fairly convinced red light isn't going to cause doomsday for corals. Fiji purple bulbs have a fair amount of red in their spectrum, and they're found in most T5 tanks. As long as you don't overdo them, I personally don't think that red LEDs would cause problems. Just be aware that the color blending might be a little weird- have you looked into warm white LEDs for red supplementation? :)
 
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