Red and Green LED's....

[SPotter]

And they are only about two hours from me. I wonder if the online guys will give the discount on the fixture for the black friday sale in november.

Steve

 

[SPotter]

I havent...I went another direction on my tank so I had to deal with that first. I am absolutely dead set on finding something very clean to hang over my rimless. That has been my hang up to this point. The DIY route I can do Im just not sure of the cleanliness of them...Im also looking at AI, Reeftech, and the Radion

what size tank are you wanting to put this on??

I am having a custom 60x36x30 tank built. Both AI and Ecotech assure me that they have the power to penetrate 30" with being hung about 12" above the surface. The tank will have a fully enclosed canopy on it so I am not that concerned about appearance. Functionality and reliability is my main concern. I am not confident enough to diy this one.

 

[Kolognekoral]

I am currently testing red leds and, although the aesthetic is interesting, as the warmer tones are enhanced, (which also means the browns!), I prefer the effect without the reds. My preference. They do nothing for coral growth. If you want to add a growth oriented LED colour, then the blue-greens are the better bet, up to 530nm or so.

 

[SPotter]

Thank you for your input Jamie. I am trying to decide between an led fixture that has RGB and one that doesnt.

 

[Kolognekoral]

Thank you for your input Jamie. I am trying to decide between an led fixture that has RGB and one that doesnt.

You don't want a RGB fixture and here is why: although these are primary colours and it is possible to optically mix all colours (more or less) with them, they represent only three wavelengths. There is a difference between wavelengths and optical mix. The last is a trick our eyes play, such as what artists call pointilism and we use for colour printing. If we are far enough away from the individual colour spots or they are fine enough to start with, our vision blends them to create other colours. This will not help your corals as they require wavelengths, not an optical mix!

With LEDs, you want two main types of light: white light for our eyes and to balance missing spectrum, typically one uses a cool to neutral white phosphor, plus violet to blue light for the photosynthesis and colour rendition of coral pigments. Red is not required, unless you really like warm colouring and, frankly, I would try to supply this with a warmer white LED.

At this point in time, you have two excellent choices (and certainly more coming/ proving themselves over the years) for top quality lighting that I've had experience with; AI and Vertex. I have the later and am very pleased with it. It was defintiely the right choice. Both are expensive to start, but actually worth the price and difficult to compare, as they are very different approaches to LED lighting. You'll find plenty of fans of both types.

Although they may cost more than most want to spend, I am one that always trys to buy quality, as I've learned over the years, cheap products are cheap for a reason. You tend to buy them twice or three times (if you're that gullable)! and typically don't do the job you expected to begin with. I've been keeping marine tanks for over 40 years, I know what can happen. :headwally:

 

[BowieReefer84]

With a canopy you could go with AI's and DIY the supplementation as you feel fit. I have a 24 led kit I put together with a mix of warm whites, neutral whites, cool white, blues, and royal blues. At first I only had cool whites and royal blues. The addition of the other led's is not a HUGE difference, but I would definately consider it a marked improvement.

Sounds like quite the build you are about to begin.

 

[SPotter]

You don't want a RGB fixture and here is why: although these are primary colours and it is possible to optically mix all colours (more or less) with them, they represent only three wavelengths. There is a difference between wavelengths and optical mix. The last is a trick our eyes play, such as what artists call pointilism and we use for colour printing. If we are far enough away from the individual colour spots or they are fine enough to start with, our vision blends them to create other colours. This will not help your corals as they require wavelengths, not an optical mix!

With LEDs, you want two main types of light: white light for our eyes and to balance missing spectrum, typically one uses a cool to neutral white phosphor, plus violet to blue light for the photosynthesis and colour rendition of coral pigments. Red is not required, unless you really like warm colouring and, frankly, I would try to supply this with a warmer white LED.

At this point in time, you have two excellent choices (and certainly more coming/ proving themselves over the years) for top quality lighting that I've had experience with; AI and Vertex. I have the later and am very pleased with it. It was defintiely the right choice. Both are expensive to start, but actually worth the price and difficult to compare, as they are very different approaches to LED lighting. You'll find plenty of fans of both types.

Although they may cost more than most want to spend, I am one that always trys to buy quality, as I've learned over the years, cheap products are cheap for a reason. You tend to buy them twice or three times (if you're that gullable)! and typically don't do the job you expected to begin with. I've been keeping marine tanks for over 40 years, I know what can happen. :headwally:

I really do appreciate your additional comments. It does add reason to the decision. I have made the mistake of buying things for this hobby just because its offered like when I got my apex...i bought an orp probe. I had no idea what orp was and whether I needed to monitor it but I could so I bought the probe. Its very easy to get lured away for the "just keep it simple" approach to this hobby and before you know....you have a whole room of things you dont use any more.

 

[SPotter]

You don't want a RGB fixture and here is why: although these are primary colours and it is possible to optically mix all colours (more or less) with them, they represent only three wavelengths. There is a difference between wavelengths and optical mix. The last is a trick our eyes play, such as what artists call pointilism and we use for colour printing. If we are far enough away from the individual colour spots or they are fine enough to start with, our vision blends them to create other colours. This will not help your corals as they require wavelengths, not an optical mix!

With LEDs, you want two main types of light: white light for our eyes and to balance missing spectrum, typically one uses a cool to neutral white phosphor, plus violet to blue light for the photosynthesis and colour rendition of coral pigments. Red is not required, unless you really like warm colouring and, frankly, I would try to supply this with a warmer white LED.

At this point in time, you have two excellent choices (and certainly more coming/ proving themselves over the years) for top quality lighting that I've had experience with; AI and Vertex. I have the later and am very pleased with it. It was defintiely the right choice. Both are expensive to start, but actually worth the price and difficult to compare, as they are very different approaches to LED lighting. You'll find plenty of fans of both types.

Although they may cost more than most want to spend, I am one that always trys to buy quality, as I've learned over the years, cheap products are cheap for a reason. You tend to buy them twice or three times (if you're that gullable)! and typically don't do the job you expected to begin with. I've been keeping marine tanks for over 40 years, I know what can happen. :headwally:

With a canopy you could go with AI's and DIY the supplementation as you feel fit. I have a 24 led kit I put together with a mix of warm whites, neutral whites, cool white, blues, and royal blues. At first I only had cool whites and royal blues. The addition of the other led's is not a HUGE difference, but I would definately consider it a marked improvement.

Sounds like quite the build you are about to begin.

Thanks Bowie....I had thought about going the AI route and then supplementing with some diy leds. I have built 2 smaller fixtures...one on my frag tank and one for my algae turf scrubber and I am happy to say they are still working :beer: Given the size of this new tank I didnt want to mess around with such a big project for lighting. I know my limits on DIY projects.

 

[rtparty]

You don't want a RGB fixture and here is why: although these are primary colours and it is possible to optically mix all colours (more or less) with them, they represent only three wavelengths. There is a difference between wavelengths and optical mix. The last is a trick our eyes play, such as what artists call pointilism and we use for colour printing. If we are far enough away from the individual colour spots or they are fine enough to start with, our vision blends them to create other colours. This will not help your corals as they require wavelengths, not an optical mix!

I don't agree with this at all. I am running some RGB LEDs right now and am loving the results. I can't stand the white/blue mix that Vertex and AI employ. Colors lack in most cases and it is a VERY limited spectrum.

EVERY single MH and T5 bulb out there has a portion of red in it, yet when we switch to LED, red is terrible and stay away??? Find the logic in that one. :headwalls:

I am not saying we need a bunch of red/pink/magenta/purple LEDs but we need some. Chlorohplyll uses red light the most efficiently actually. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1496092)

I like that my RGB has an equal mix of red, green and blue and then I can add more blue and UV LEDs to off set the white a little bit.

By the time LED has run its' course, we will not be using the standard blue/white mix that we have now. T5s tried to go that route and it never worked out. Other lighting technologies have also tried and all fail. Strictly white and blue never has been nor ever will be a good solution.

 

[pwreef]

I don't agree with this at all. I am running some RGB LEDs right now and am loving the results.

Would you care the share the details of what exactly you are running? Thanks!

 

[Kolognekoral]

I don't agree with this at all. I am running some RGB LEDs right now and am loving the results. I can't stand the white/blue mix that Vertex and AI employ. Colors lack in most cases and it is a VERY limited spectrum.

EVERY single MH and T5 bulb out there has a portion of red in it, yet when we switch to LED, red is terrible and stay away??? Find the logic in that one. :headwalls:

I am not saying we need a bunch of red/pink/magenta/purple LEDs but we need some. Chlorohplyll uses red light the most efficiently actually. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1496092)

I like that my RGB has an equal mix of red, green and blue and then I can add more blue and UV LEDs to off set the white a little bit.

By the time LED has run its' course, we will not be using the standard blue/white mix that we have now. T5s tried to go that route and it never worked out. Other lighting technologies have also tried and all fail. Strictly white and blue never has been nor ever will be a good solution.

First, if the wavelength is not being transmited from the LED, it is simply not there! This is basic physics. You cannot trick a coral into believing it is getting 490nm, if it is not there. End of discussion. with a RGB spectrum, only the blue light is giving the corals any usable PAR; i.e. PUR. The rest is decoration.

Marine organisms use very little of the red spectrum for photosynthesis, as this part of the PAR spectrum is no longer present in usable amounts at about 5m depth. Our corals do not use it to any notable extent, indeed, when corals are exposed to just red light, life processes literally stop. No photosynthesis. (read some of Dana Riddle's articles on PAR, pigments, etc) This is a simple fact of marine environments. organisms that actually live in the tidal zone MAY be able to utilize red light, as many algae can, but, if you dive, you will notice that such organisms disappear after a few meters under the waves, unless they are able to utilize the blue PAR. Other organisms that use the blue PAR spectrum replace the red light dependant forms. The PAR spectrum was originally established for land plants and does not take into consideration the effect of water, which filters the wavelengths, starting with the red and moving right down into the UV.

Also, the thread you noted is quite old and contains a great deal of misinformation.

As to previous lighting schemes containing red, some do, most do not! Check the actual spectra involved. Yes, a bit of red is typically there, as it is hard to avoid, but only certain T5s or halides have any notable red and this is for the aesthetic.

if you want red, then use it, our eyes seem to relish these tones, but don't expect the corals to suddenly applaud. They are blind to it.

 

[rtparty]

First, if the wavelength is not being transmited from the LED, it is simply not there! This is basic physics. You cannot trick a coral into believing it is getting 490nm, if it is not there. End of discussion. with a RGB spectrum, only the blue light is giving the corals any usable PAR; i.e. PUR. The rest is decoration.

Marine organisms use very little of the red spectrum for photosynthesis, as this part of the PAR spectrum is no longer present in usable amounts at about 5m depth. Our corals do not use it to any notable extent, indeed, when corals are exposed to just red light, life processes literally stop. No photosynthesis. (read some of Dana Riddle's articles on PAR, pigments, etc) This is a simple fact of marine environments. organisms that actually live in the tidal zone MAY be able to utilize red light, as many algae can, but, if you dive, you will notice that such organisms disappear after a few meters under the waves, unless they are able to utilize the blue PAR. Other organisms that use the blue PAR spectrum replace the red light dependant forms. The PAR spectrum was originally established for land plants and does not take into consideration the effect of water, which filters the wavelengths, starting with the red and moving right down into the UV.

Also, the thread you noted is quite old and contains a great deal of misinformation.

As to previous lighting schemes containing red, some do, most do not! Check the actual spectra involved. Yes, a bit of red is typically there, as it is hard to avoid, but only certain T5s or halides have any notable red and this is for the aesthetic.

if you want red, then use it, our eyes seem to relish these tones, but don't expect the corals to suddenly applaud. They are blind to it.

Alright show me some popular T5 bulbs and MH bulbs that do not contain at least some red. Even the ATI Blue Plus has red in it.

I am not telling anyone to go throw a ton of red LEDs onto their tank. But the VERY limited spectrum that AI has, is not what corals need. Just like you said, if it isn't there, it isn't there. The AIs have major spikes in very limited areas. They miss all the rest.

You can argue this all you want but I have seen enough tanks lit up with the CW/RB combo to know that tank looks UGLY to me and the corals are never that impressive.

 

[96p993]

Ryan realize Kolo did say there are other ways to get the red spectrum by use neutral whites not just using red led's...I think the problem here is the discussion of whether they are actually needed or the red being wanted for overall appearance to the human eye.

 

[Kolognekoral]

Alright show me some popular T5 bulbs and MH bulbs that do not contain at least some red. Even the ATI Blue Plus has red in it.

I am not telling anyone to go throw a ton of red LEDs onto their tank. But the VERY limited spectrum that AI has, is not what corals need. Just like you said, if it isn't there, it isn't there. The AIs have major spikes in very limited areas. They miss all the rest.

You can argue this all you want but I have seen enough tanks lit up with the CW/RB combo to know that tank looks UGLY to me and the corals are never that impressive.

Ryan,

here is a link that may be interesting
http://www.ehow.com/facts_5513672_far-underwater-can-light-travel.html

and another on photography
http://www.uwphotographyguide.com/underwater-photography-lighting-fundamentals

These principles of light physics clearly define the conditions one would find on a reef. As you can read, at 15ft/5m, there is no red light present. None what so ever. Yellow is gone at 35ft/12m, which is not very deep and represents the average depth most of our corals would call home.

Also, go to this webpage and find some graphs on T5s and further links to studies.

http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html

You will note that most T5 are weak in the red spectrum, as are most halides. There are exceptions, such as the world reknowned Fiji Purple from Korallen-Zucht, which was designed for the specific purpose of coral aesthetic. It brings colours to our eyes that would otherwise not be seen, as they cannot be transmitted under the natural light of the corals in question. It has been copied by many companies.

Don't confuse visual perception with coral well being. Even if a coral looks nice under a certain spectrum, it doesn't mean it likes it or will thrive under it. A well balanced spectrum will bridge the gap between human desire and coral well being, with the balance being stilted toward the aquarist. After all, we have paid for this hobby and want to get the visual pleasure out of it, often to the detriment of the creatures we choose to keep.

The original question of this thread was concerning RBG led lighting. As I have written, it is in itself not a good lighting system. In conjunction with a more balance white spectrum, it will bring visual pleasure, but let's not confuse it with coral well being.

 

[notclear]

What the green LED can bring?

 

[rysher]

I don't agree with this at all. I am running some RGB LEDs right now and am loving the results.

of course you dont agree, you are running it.
people always justify every equipment they are using even if it's unnecessary and they will argue that they are right.

 

[rysher]

Ryan,

here is a link that may be interesting
http://www.ehow.com/facts_5513672_far-underwater-can-light-travel.html

and another on photography
http://www.uwphotographyguide.com/underwater-photography-lighting-fundamentals

These principles of light physics clearly define the conditions one would find on a reef. As you can read, at 15ft/5m, there is no red light present. None what so ever. Yellow is gone at 35ft/12m, which is not very deep and represents the average depth most of our corals would call home.

very good read, thanks for sharing.

 

[Kolognekoral]

What the green LED can bring?

I've not worked with green LEDs, at this point, but the wavelength currently offered as green is a bit high for coral photosynthesis, although partially useful. From the aesthetic side, it would certainly bring some of the more turquoise tones out. There is a turqouise LED, which may be the more interesting addition. if you want to understand how pure spectra interact with each other, look for stuff on photography and theatre lighting. The RGB priciples have long been used in these areas with light, rather than pigment. It is a fascinating and decieving study. What you get is not what you see!

As LEDs, due to their very technology, produce limited spectra, unless coupled with a phosphor (white LEDs), we are really only piecing together a 'complete' spectrum. It will always have holes in it, until we have truly wide-band phosphors involved, which I expect to see in the next few years. As the market for such LEDs is extremely limited (aquarists are a very small niche), they will be slower in developement and higher in price. Everything takes time. One of the reasons I'm so happy with my Illumina is, it really makes a great basis for improvement, as the technologies evolve. I could have gone DIY, but, to be honest, in Europe the price difference was not that great for what I would have DIYed and the basis of the Vertex is much better than I could have accomplished. Plus, I wanted to spoil myself for a change! :dance:

Jamie

 

[rtparty]

of course you dont agree, you are running it.
people always justify every equipment they are using even if it's unnecessary and they will argue that they are right.

You are right. I only disagree because I run it, not because I am having success with it. So glad you are here to clear that all up for us.

 

[rysher]

You are right.

i know