Reducing phosphate in frozen foods

[Moort82]

Hi I thought that it had been disproved (and a very long time ago) that by rinsing your frozen food that it actually reduced the amount of phosphate but I came across this vid and its his opinion that it majorly reduces it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bayCqXvdg94
Now normally I'd just think some nut isn't up to date but not meaning to sound critical or disrespectful, but I know the chap is a popular and respected speaker but personally found a fair bit of his opinions different to the norm (like LEDS can't keep scolys etc longterm). I wonder if this is the reason why the comments have been disabled. I'm particularly surprised that his opinion is based on PE Mysis which comes in very little packing water, I could understand if he was talking about a cheaper brand with more filler. Not trying to have a go at the chap at all, I'm probably the one who is ill informed but thought I'd ask the question.

Just wondered your thoughts.

 

[slief]

The only frozen food I rinse is frozen mysis and I use the PE stuff. I don't rinse it so much for Phosphate reduction but instead to rinse the oils off that cause our skimmers to go flat. PE Mysis has more oil and nutrients than any other mysis in my experience. That's why it's one of the most nutritious mysis for our fish. Phosphates will also be reduced a bit by rinsing it although I am not sure how much phosphate is in the stuff.

I thaw it in tank water, put it in a fine net and pour some more tank water over it. I used to rinse with RODI but stopped doing that a year or so ago. I feel the tank water rinse is plenty sufficient.

 

[GreshamH]

Hi I thought that it had been disproved (and a very long time ago) that by rinsing your frozen food that it actually reduced the amount of phosphate but I came across this vid and its his opinion that it majorly reduces it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bayCqXvdg94
Now normally I'd just think some nut isn't up to date but not meaning to sound critical or disrespectful, but I know the chap is a popular and respected speaker but personally found a fair bit of his opinions different to the norm (like LEDS can't keep scolys etc longterm). I wonder if this is the reason why the comments have been disabled. I'm particularly surprised that his opinion is based on PE Mysis which comes in very little packing water, I could understand if he was talking about a cheaper brand with more filler. Not trying to have a go at the chap at all, I'm probably the one who is ill informed but thought I'd ask the question.

Just wondered your thoughts.

Math, it doesn't lie...

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

Rinsing Foods and the Effect on Phosphate
Now that we have some information on the phosphate in foods, we can critically examine the concern that many aquarists have about foods, and specifically their rinsing of frozen foods before use. A typical test you see is someone taking a cube of fish food, thawing it, and putting it into a half cup of water. They then test that water for phosphate and find it "off the charts". Let's assume that means 1 ppm phosphate, which would give a very dark blue color in many phosphate tests. Bear in mind this is a thought problem, not an actual measured value, but it is typical of what people think the answer is.

Is that a lot of phosphate? Well, there are two ways to think of the answer.

The first way is as a portion of the total phosphate in that food. A half cup of water at 1 ppm (1 mg/L) phosphate contains a total of 0.12 mg of phosphate. A cube of Formula 2 contains about 11.2 mg of phosphate. So the hypothetical rinsing step has removed about 1 percent of the phosphate in that food. Not really worthwhile, in my opinion, but that decision is one every aquarist can make for themselves.

The second way to look at this rinsing is with respect to how much it reduces the boost to the aquarium phosphate concentration. Using the same calculation as above of 0.12 mg of phosphate, and adding that to 100 gallons total water volume, we find that phosphate that was rinsed away would have boosted the "in tank" phosphate concentration by 0.12 mg/379 L = 0.0003 ppm. That amount washed away does not seem significant with respect to the "in tank" target level of about 50-100 times that level (say, 0.015 to 0.03 ppm), nor does it seem significant relative to the total amount of phosphate actually added each day in foods (which is perhaps 50-1000 times as much, based on input rates from Table 4. Again, the conclusion I make is that rinsing is not really worthwhile, in my opinion.

 

[Moort82]

Hi Gresham, that's the article that I had read before and why I personally feel there is no real point rinsing the food. It had been talked about before that was published but its an excellent article to put everyones mind at rest.

I know see the article was published at a similar time to the video but it still surprises me how misconceptions are passed on in the hobby. I wonder if he has ever tested the rinse water and done the math himself or just passing on general ignorance.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi Gresham, that's the article that I had read before and why I personally feel there is no real point rinsing the food. It had been talked about before that was published but its an excellent article to put everyones mind at rest.

I know see the article was published at a similar time to the video but it still surprises me how misconceptions are passed on in the hobby. I wonder if he has ever tested the rinse water and done the math himself or just passing on general ignorance.

There are still a lot of people who think evolution is not a valid theory. Also, consider our current belief that consuming supplements and vitamins will make a big difference in our lives. The same type of thinking is going on in our hobby.

 

[Tradewinds]

There are still a lot of people who think evolution is not a valid theory. Also, consider our current belief that consuming supplements and vitamins will make a big difference in our lives. The same type of thinking is going on in our hobby.

Parroting of misinformation brings to mind the quote by Daniel Boorstin - "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge."

 

[doctorwhoreefer]

Also, consider our current belief that consuming supplements and vitamins will make a big difference in our lives. The same type of thinking is going on in our hobby.

Ahh but if we're going to be logical and take things for what they really are, general statements saying we don't need vitamins or supplements can be just as harmful.
If what you're saying were the case 100% of the time, there would not be any humans who have those weird things called deficiencies.

Maybe as a test, next time your gf says she's having a bad time and reaches for the Midol, tell her to stop parroting misinformation. Bwuahahaha!

 

[Reef Frog]

Math, it doesn't lie...

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry

Excellent article as always from RHF.

Dr Farley's article didn't test PE Mysis brand shrimp. It puts lots of oil in the water unless you rinse it. The sheen on the water surface is very noticeable. As noted it interferes with skimming. A rinse is worth it for this reason alone IME.

Lipids will liberate PO4 upon decomposition, right? Randy's article used protein as an example, not fats unless I missed it.

Some tanks, even relatively small ones, are fed multiple cubes per day. Every day of the year. The article didn't account for the accumulation over time I don't think. What if a 55g to 75g packed with LPS, NPS polyps & fish was fed 500-800+ of these cubes per year where the keeper was aiming for near zero to <.02ppm of PO4?

I understand its still a minority percentage when stacked up against the food itself and or what may leach from the LR in some cases. But don't you think it still might be a meaningful amount depending on the export options the aquarist has available ? Couldn't it be the straw that breaks the camel's back in some cases? Especially in a case of a tank with something like bubble algae aka Valonia aka the green devil which can persist in low light and very very low nutrients?

If the keeper is working hard to control nutrients and is just barely winning that battle, I don't see how rinsing, especially if the technique requires no extra effort whatsoever, can be rightly called a complete waste of time (not that RHF said this but many posts you'll read do take this view).

I'm certainly not arguing over the conclusions reached by the author of this fine article. Just wondering if his conclusion covered variables like these. It's kind of academic I know, but I was curious...

 

[GreshamH]

I'd have to say, not many people rinse as much PE Mysis as we do (Reef Nutrition - Mysis-Feast) so I am not discounting that aspect... (our grease trap at the RN kitchen facility can prove just how much oil is rinsed

but, Randy did indeed look at the total phosphorus content which takes into account the lipids. There was indeed some rinse tests conducted by a public aquarium on PE, I'll see if that is public data or not.

I was probably the most critical one of Randy's article. Much of my back and forth with him is on a private forum though, so I cannot post it

 

[GreshamH]

Some interesting reading for something Mike mentioned:

http://icb.oxfordjournals.org/content/39/1/44.full.pdf+html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022098111004588#

 

[Reef Frog]

Thanks. It looks like I have some redeading and new reading to do! The other question that occurred to me:

Can free floating lipids be used by the animals in our aquariums? Can they go rancid in our systems or cause any other biological mischief? Good, bad or neutral? Anybody know?

 

[GreshamH]

Thanks. It looks like I have some redeading and new reading to do! The other question that occurred to me:

Can free floating lipids be used by the animals in our aquariums? Can they go rancid in our systems or cause any other biological mischief? Good, bad or neutral? Anybody know?

Those free floating lipids are utilized by a few things, corals being the major one. I doubt they'd do rancid in aquaria given the microbial populations. Too much is bad, but a little isn't bad, in that sense. In PO4 sense, probably not good if your export isn't up to snuff.

 

[2_zoa]

Hi I thought that it had been disproved (and a very long time ago) that by rinsing your frozen food that it actually reduced the amount of phosphate but I came across this vid and its his opinion that it majorly reduces it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bayCqXvdg94
Now normally I'd just think some nut isn't up to date but not meaning to sound critical or disrespectful, but I know the chap is a popular and respected speaker but personally found a fair bit of his opinions different to the norm (like LEDS can't keep scolys etc longterm). I wonder if this is the reason why the comments have been disabled. I'm particularly surprised that his opinion is based on PE Mysis which comes in very little packing water, I could understand if he was talking about a cheaper brand with more filler. Not trying to have a go at the chap at all, I'm probably the one who is ill informed but thought I'd ask the question.

Just wondered your thoughts.

So, I checked out several videos by American Reef. This guy is in several videos and has some mixed opinions. I should say, the videos show a little on the the experimental side..... I will admit that I didn't check video dates but, He does go all LED on his 300 gallon tank, that he talks in front of regarding phosphates in the food. He states he's getting the best color he's had and the growth rates are also good. Not quite Iwakies(sp) 6500k good but, close. Sanjay also makes a cameo in an LED experiment video. I might have heard wrong but, I "think" Sanjay states that he thinks it's something different then the lights causing the mortality in the scolys.

Does the fellow in the video visit the boards? If so, what's his screen name?

 

[GreshamH]

Mike Paletta, no, doesn't visit the forums really.

 

[ca1ore]

Add me to the list of folks that doesn't rinse thawed foods ..... except PE Mysis. Although my current skimmer is less sensitive to the fats in food than prior models, it does still get affected some by unwashed PE Mysis so rinsing is warranted I think. Number one skimmer killer is the New Era grazer rings.

 

[2_zoa]

Mike Paletta, no, doesn't visit the forums really.

Yea sorry, I should have been more specific.

 

[Archgeek]

Add me to the list of folks that doesn't rinse thawed foods ..... except PE Mysis. Although my current skimmer is less sensitive to the fats in food than prior models, it does still get affected some by unwashed PE Mysis so rinsing is warranted I think. Number one skimmer killer is the New Era grazer rings.

I have to agree the New Era Frazer rings slow my skimmer.