Reef Ceramics

[Holmez221b]

How long does it typically take for "Quick wall" to cure?? I would guess less time than portland cement since it's potable..

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9012401#post9012401 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Icefire
Well someone in the DIY Rocks thread says his bag was full of 1inch long fiberglass fibers. Don't they show up?

I wanted to make a rock background and a nice arch/rockwork in place of live rocks.

I've been using the Quikrete "Hydraulic Water-Stop Cement" mix, and was only recently advised by the technician at Quikrete about "Quikwall", as I need to line my well and cistern.

According to them, it has the same performance as the stuff I've been using. The people on the gardening forum I linked to in an earlier post use it because it has good sculpting properties, and I guess they don't need it to be water-proof. I didn't see any visible fibers in their galleries.

I'm sure they blend into the mix, just as the aragonite and oyster shells "disappear". They more you work the mixture, the more portland and water works its' way to the surface, rendering a smoother surface.

I just did another aquarium last night with a product from Bomix (available in Canada at Lansing/Rona Building Centres) mixed with a shell & coarse (#4) aragonite (Special Reef Mix). It's a quick drying mixture called "Swift Patch". It doesn't have the same sculpture-friendly malleability that the Quikwall product has. On the plus side, it has a longer working time of about 10 minutes, and it hardens slowly toward the end. The Quikrete and King stuff dries rapidly at the end of its' set-up time. I like the two minute warning.

In past years, I've used sealbond as a plasticizer, bonding agent and sealer. It works well for water-proofing, and eliminates shrinkage cracks. You could make your own mix of 3 parts Portland, 3 parts oyster shell, and 1 part sealbond. I use this mixture for parging ponds and water features, except with brick sand instead of shell. Rapid set chemicals are also available from big box stores, but they only claim a 50% increase in curing time. I'm not sure if these off the shelf products are just calcium chloride, or if they use polymers.

If you're making a rock arch, you will need more aggregate (shell or gravel) and less portland in the mix, for greater strength, better curing, and fewer cracks. You may want to use some PVC pipe and fittings for reinforcement (rebar).

You could also use rocks and PVC pipe to make the structure, and fill in the gaps with concrete mix, like this.

 

[Icefire]

Mr.Wilson, I'm confused
Which cement did you use in a reef? Curing time before puting it in the tank? Did you cure in water?

Thanks

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9016669#post9016669 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Icefire
Mr.Wilson, I'm confused
Which cement did you use in a reef? Curing time before puting it in the tank? Did you cure in water?

Thanks

I've used four types, all are safe and easy to use. Straight portland mixes aren't so good, as they require a long cure time. So far the Quikrete "hydraulic water stop" has been the best, but as I mentioned, Quikwall is certified for drinking water while Hydraulic water stop isn't.

I've added water the same day with small jobs, like bonding rocks, but the big jobs have had a few weeks to cure dry because I'm usually waiting for contractors to finish their work (dust, chemicals, & temperature issues) around the tank.

I would let it dry cure for two days, then fill it. The instructions advise that you can use it underwater immediately (for fixing leaks under water), but a few days will increase strength.

In my first post I just called it "Quikwall" to avoid the confusion, as it's basically the same stuff I use. I guess confusion is unavoidable.

The basic difference in these mixes is rapid setting mixtures can be used in a couple of days, with no PH swings, while standard portland mixes require a month dry curing and a month of wet curing (purging). Polymer-modified mixtures are also stronger, bond better, with no shrinkage or cracking.

 

[TwentyTwenty]

Mr. Wilson do you think I could use calcium chloride chips instead of oyster shells ?

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9018911#post9018911 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by TwentyTwenty
Mr. Wilson do you think I could use calcium chloride chips instead of oyster shells ?

That's a question for a chemist. All I know that salt and cement don't mix, and don't see the benefit of doing so. The calcium salts would dissolve while it sets-up, and as it cures.

Salt interferes with the curing process and strength of concrete. Lots of people use it in the DIY rock threads and seem to be happy with it.

Oyster shells and aragonite are used as an aggregate, as you would use sand with construction cement mixes. The purpose is to give strength and body to the mixture. Without it, it would be very brittle.

Portland on its' own won't make concrete. To over-simplify it, oyster shell is the body, and portland is the glue.

A malleable cement mixture will allow you to carve it like clay, and make all the holes you want.

 

[mrpet]

tinytool what did all that run you? im setting up the same size tank was wondering what the total cost was for ya. thanks scott

 

[Holmez221b]

Mr. Wilson.. Have you used the Quikrete "hydraulic water stop" in reefs or just with Fish only setups??

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9019737#post9019737 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Holmez221b
Mr. Wilson.. Have you used the Quikrete "hydraulic water stop" in reefs or just with Fish only setups??

I've used it in reefs only so far. Coraline algae grows over it within six months. It doesn't seem to attract algae as much as rock does, perhaps it's less of a phosphate sink, due to a lower calcium content.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Mr Wilson,
I am curious about the rock you've made with the Quikrete "Hydraulic Water-Stop Cement" you have been using.

I didn't see where you may have said if this stuff has fiberglass in it. If it does, are fiberglass particles really safe for the tank?

How soon have you been able to put a finished piece in the tank, and start the reef curing cycle?

Do you soak these in freshwater prior to introduction to the tank?

Have you kept track of test results on various things, like water quality, elemental/chemical composition of the saltwater after introduction and the like, and if so, have you noticed anything out of the usual?

Will rock made with this stuff, and with added sand and crushed shell/coral, be porous like natural liverock? Basically, if this is used, will it harbor beneficial bacterial as readily as agarocrete?

Just how long have you used this stuff and how old is the oldest tank you designed that is still running and using this mix for it's rock?

And a tip. "Solar Salt Crystals" Water softener salt has a much larger grain size than rock salt, is a more randomly shaped crystal structure and holds up to moisture immersion better. Typically to use it in a mix, I mix everything else, add the water, and just as I am ready to cast, I mix in 1 part of Solar Salt.
Seems to work well for portland types.

Thanks for the thread
Good work!

 

[Icefire]

The only hydraulic cement I have found is Bomix Poly Plug at 45$/50lbs @ Rona.
Their work time is only 2.5 minutes... kinda quick.

 

[Holmez221b]

I bought a 20lb bucket at lowes for about $12. It does set up real fast , but not so quick you can't get the shape you want.

 

[Holmez221b]

Mr. Wilson.. I took your advice and used the hydraulic cement .. Typically how long does it take you to cure and get the ph down to an acceptable level??

 

[Icefire]

I emailed Quikrete:

I'm looking for a cement that would be used in a
SaltWater aquarium as background and rock.

It must not bring the PH higher than 8.5 and leech
nitrate/phosphate/hazardous material in the water once cured (in a week
if possible).

Which products would you recommand? I have heard that QuickWall/Hydrolic
water stop would probably work.

Here's the reply:

Thank you, for visiting The QUIKRETE Companies website. The Commercial
Grade Fast Set Repair Mortar is suggested.Then cure and soak until pH OK

Initial set time is 20min

 

[Holmez221b]

I'm using the commercial grade hydraulic water plug.. I guess that's the one they reccomend?? I put 3 pieces in a garbage can yesterday, I just checked the ph, it's a 10 plus..

 

[Insane Reefer]

The fast set mortar has aggregates in it - sand I believe, and not what we want. It will still have a kure time.

A 20lb bucket Holmez? Sure it isn't 10lbs?

The reason Mr Wilson uses what he does is supposed almost immediate usage - sounds like there is no cure time. He also recommended leaving them to sit for several days to "setup".

That is worrisome Holmez - maybe if you had waited a little while the pH would have not gone so high?

Wish Mr Wilson would answer this post, and address my questions. I was actually thinking of trying a small batch for my nano - but if your results are typical Holmez, ain't no way - I"ll stick to the "tried but true but takes forever" portland mix.

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9048630#post9048630 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Mr Wilson,
I am curious about the rock you've made with the Quikrete "Hydraulic Water-Stop Cement" you have been using.

I didn't see where you may have said if this stuff has fiberglass in it. If it does, are fiberglass particles really safe for the tank?

How soon have you been able to put a finished piece in the tank, and start the reef curing cycle?

Do you soak these in freshwater prior to introduction to the tank?

Have you kept track of test results on various things, like water quality, elemental/chemical composition of the saltwater after introduction and the like, and if so, have you noticed anything out of the usual?

Will rock made with this stuff, and with added sand and crushed shell/coral, be porous like natural liverock? Basically, if this is used, will it harbor beneficial bacterial as readily as agarocrete?

Just how long have you used this stuff and how old is the oldest tank you designed that is still running and using this mix for it's rock?

And a tip. "Solar Salt Crystals" Water softener salt has a much larger grain size than rock salt, is a more randomly shaped crystal structure and holds up to moisture immersion better. Typically to use it in a mix, I mix everything else, add the water, and just as I am ready to cast, I mix in 1 part of Solar Salt.
Seems to work well for portland types.

Thanks for the thread
Good work!

The "quikwall" product has fiberglass in it, but the hydraulic water stop doesn't. Fiberglass inert, and therefore, is safe to use in a marine aquarium. I'm not sure how much the fiberglass shows. It's used for making garden sculptures, so I wouldn't imagine it would be too obvious. If you work the surface it will draw portland and water to the top and hide the fibers.

I've been using the hydraulic water stop stuff, but quikwall is certified for potable water.
Certification is a gray area. Just because something isn't certified, doesn't mean it's not safe, and something that is certified for drinking water still needs to be scrutinized for PH buffering and other properties. I'm satisfied with the safety of the hydraulic water-stop product. Very few, if any of the constituents of our reefs are certified for potable water, so it isn't a standard that we must adhere closely too.

Curing time hinges greatly upon what you are doing. I'm not interested in making rocks, just walls, covering pipes and bonding rocks together, so my thinner stuff cures faster. Rocks are thicker, with a greater moisture content, so it takes longer to cure. The curing goal is to remove the water that is needed to make the cement. These polymer-modified mixtures appear to be able to do just that in a very short period of time. Standard portland mixtures on the other hand require a full month to produce these results. The common mistake DIY rock builders make, is they fail to etch the surface of the rock to stabilize it, and they soak it in water to cure it rather than allowing it to cure dry.

A longer dry cure time, will greatly reduce the wet cure time. Even a few extra days will help. The two tanks I provided pictures of, are from about three months ago. The overflow and rock bonding jobs are from over a year ago. In the case of the tanks, I was waiting for construction, so a long (3-4 week dry cure was possible), but not necessary. I believe the same results would have occurred if the walls were dry cured for only a few days, based on my experiences with rock bonding and covering pipes. Rock bonding is a quick process, as the live rock has to stay live. I filled the tanks within hours of completing the rock work. The rock arranging took about 8 hours, so the cement was of varying degrees of dry cure time. I had no PH increase in any of these instances.

Perhaps I would have experienced a PH shift if the cement was soaked in freshwater. RO/DI water in particular, would breakdown the rock and increase PH. I used hydrochloric acid to etch the shotcrete in the glass aquariums, but I was leery of using acid around the acrylic tank, so I skipped that step. I didn't notice any differences between the two.

The only leaching I've experienced is calcium salts. You can see white deposits in certain areas. It leaves the rock during wet curing and crystalizes as it meets the salt water. It doesn't appear to affect water quality or parameters. I physically remove it as it forms.

Keep in mind, these are large aquariums with comparatively small amounts of concrete product. They are also new tanks with little in the way of marine organisms to be affected by the process. The life on the rocks goes through a natural die-off at the same time, so it wouldn't be fair to say there is 100% proof of no ill-effects.

If you are using this product for making rock, you are going to experience a quick stabilization of the rock, but a long period of stabilization of the nitrogen cycle. Reef tanks with live rock take a full year to become established. Using all artificial rock will set you back another 6 months. Mix and match rock is a better way to go.

I'm all for finding an alternative to the collection of live rock, but we need a viable system of culturing the rock for greater biodiversity. Dead rock doesn't have the probiotics necessary to establish a healthy system. Live coral will introduce the necessary organisms, but it's a catch 22; you can't add the coral until the tank is established, and you can't establish the tank until you have seeded it.

The rock should be fabricated, dry cured, then placed in vats with established rock for a 3-6 month period. This could be done in commercial greenhouses without too much trouble or expense. The net result would be healthy rock with biodiversity and limited parasites & pests. It would be cost effective and environmentally sustainable.

The negative impact on the health of fish and invertebrates negates the money save by making your own rock. If you choose to make your own rock for reasons other than cost, then there are some solutions. You can buy live sand and a few premium pieces of live rock with the money you saved.

A few varieties of macro-algae can also be added to the tank, along with beneficial hitchhikers. Macro-algae eating fish won't be added for a few months, so the algae will have a chance to establish itself, clean the water and provide shelter for beneficial organisms such as zooplankton. After you add a tang or two, it will be short lived, but it serves its' purpose.

 

[Insane Reefer]

Thanks MR. Wilson for the very detailed answers - they are appreciated

However, I'm not sure you answered one of them, or if you did, I didn't find it informative...

Will rock made with this stuff, and with added sand and crushed shell/coral, be porous like natural liverock? Basically, if this is used, will it harbor beneficial bacterial as readily as agarocrete?

I completely understand where you are coming from about seeding rock - I am going to be going into a venture this spring and summer to manufacture, kure and seed live rock (portland type) for local merchants (hopefully), and had planned to do what you detailed, except with a tarp, not a greenhouse.

But when I read the info on the HWP, the words "Waterproof" stood out - to me that says "Not Porous", and not porous should also mean "No Bacteria housing"...

And I always recommend a Muriatic Acid wash after a week of water kuring. Would this be better to do before water kuring, or as I do it now?

And one last question.
You said:

Perhaps I would have experienced a PH shift if the cement was soaked in freshwater. RO/DI water in particular, would breakdown the rock and increase PH. I used hydrochloric acid to etch the shotcrete in the glass aquariums...

Can you explain this? I've never heard of RO/DI breaking the rock down, or increasing pH. Sort of curious why this would be...

Thanks again for your time and replies

 

[Holmez221b]

Insane Reefer, They have several size buckets... I knew there would be a cure time, I just wasn't sure how long it would be.. I'll let this next set dry cure for a little longer before I try to cure in water. I'm setting up a new tank and there will be a good amount of water < 90 gallon display, 55 gallon sump , 30 gallon fuge and 30 gallon frag> Hopefully if I put the rocks in a little early all the water will help dilute the caustik factor...

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9058030#post9058030 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Thanks MR. Wilson for the very detailed answers - they are appreciated

However, I'm not sure you answered one of them, or if you did, I didn't find it informative...


I completely understand where you are coming from about seeding rock - I am going to be going into a venture this spring and summer to manufacture, kure and seed live rock (portland type) for local merchants (hopefully), and had planned to do what you detailed, except with a tarp, not a greenhouse.

But when I read the info on the HWP, the words "Waterproof" stood out - to me that says "Not Porous", and not porous should also mean "No Bacteria housing"...

And I always recommend a Muriatic Acid wash after a week of water kuring. Would this be better to do before water kuring, or as I do it now?

And one last question.
You said:


Can you explain this? I've never heard of RO/DI breaking the rock down, or increasing pH. Sort of curious why this would be...

Thanks again for your time and replies

Congratulations on the upcoming rock venture. You might have over-heating with just a tarp. The greenhouse effect isn't limited to just greenhouses. I have the opposite problem up here in Canada (cold weather). I started a thread a while back to ask how cold coraline algae can tolerate, and the consensus seems to be pretty cool (60F or perhaps lower).

The water-stop cement isn't different from standard portland as far as porosity goes. Regular portland mixed with brick sand will create a water-proof seal. The property that makes this product ideal for water-proofing is the quick setting time. You can place it on a wet area, and it will still cure, while standard portland mix would dissolve.

The other water-proofing property is the polymers ability to avoid shrinkage or cracking. None of these features alter the pore structure of the mix.

In addition to this, I add 50% oyster shell as aggregate, so the pore structure is altered accordingly. The hand sculpting process also introduces air and texture to the mix.

It isn't clear what exact pore structure is optimal for a captive reef. Ammonia and nitrite reducing/converting aeromonas (nitrobacter) and nitrosomonas thrive on detritus on the aerobic surface of rocks and sand. They have no shortage of sites to colonize with just about any type of semi-porous or porous rock. The more highly prized pseudomonas that require an anaerobic environment, take up residence within the rock structure.

Until science helps us out and advises us of the optimum core structure, we don't know what kind of rock is best for the job. It has been proven that water passes through reef rock at a certain rate. If we concede that the natural pass-through rate and core structure experienced in nature cannot be improved upon, then the Hydraulic water-stop & oyster shell mix falls within that standard.

Mind you, the mix would include much more oyster shell if you were using it to make rocks, rather than a vertical wall. The smooth vertical work surface requires high bonding capacity. The more aggregate (shell or sand) you use, the weaker the bond. Rock production doesn't require much in the way of bonding strength, as it isn't required to defy gravity as it cures.

If you want more internal pores, then add salt. Thanks for the salt tip earlier by the way. The local water softener salt is made up of small crystals that are formed together into larger pieces. As such, they dissolve quickly while the cement is sets up. Crystals also make more natural looking shapes.

Here are some pictures of live rock cores from Fiji and Haiti rock. The two middle cores are from Haiti rock and represent a very tight sedimentary pore structure. The outer pieces are from Fiji rock with more void space to the structure, as they are ancient hard corals. Both pore structures are natural, yet vastly different. The cores shown here are 2.5" in diameter.

For anyone with the argument that there is no life in the center of the rock, take a look at the burrowing worm holes above. I actually found black nudibranch-looking worms in this rock when I drilled it. It macro-life is willing to dig through solid rock for dinner, there must be abundant micro-organisms living there to be consumed. Burrowing urchins are another common find.

My point with regard to the RO/DI water comment was that ion-hungry water will attack the surface of the rock more aggressively than caustic, ion-rich saltwater. While acid is great for etching the surface to stabilize and seal the rock, it is counterproductive to soak rock in water that will re-hydrate and free bound salts. Regular portland mixes require this step to purge the remaining salts after dry curing. but polymer modified mixes don't seem to need this step.

I agree that wholesale production of rock isn't conducive to the use of these more expensive polymer-modified mixes. Regular portland mixes will suffice if you have the time. In a commercial setting, you can wait a month for dry curing, and allow the rock to stabilize as critters take up residence during the culturing phase.