Reef Ceramics

Wow. Ok. Lots to digest here, lol. Thanks for taking the time to reply in-depth :)

You actually sort of hit a area (rock cores) I was going to broach in a new thread, but I'll ask you - you may very well know.

Tonight a friend was over and we got to talking about geology, which lead to talk about reefs and their composition. Are "live rocks" actually rocks in the geological sense? I mean, there are igneous rocks and sedimentary rocks. Logic would dictate that reefs would be considered sedimentary in that light, but is this the case? From my understanding, limestone is sedimentary and was reef before it fossilized and compressed into stone through pressure, but what of reef that hasn't gone through this multi-millennium long process?
Can live rock really be called rock?
 
Not quite what I aked GreshamH - this names it as a living species, I am curious in the geological classification, but thanks for the link - I learned a thing or two :)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9062556#post9062556 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Not quite what I aked GreshamH - this names it as a living species, I am curious in the geological classification, but thanks for the link - I learned a thing or two :)
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I slept through geology in high school, but I believe that much of the rock is comprised of sedimentary formations. Worms, phytoplankton, zooplankton, calcareous algae hash and coral (photosynthetic) byproducts like sugars, and other carbon sources slowly turn to stone in time.

Calcareous algae hash makes up a great deal of the aragonite coral sand that occurs in and around reefs. Calcium is obviously another big building block, as dead coral skeletons are calcareous in nature.

I guess dead, reef building (hard), corals are fossils. I believe this qualifies them as metamorphic, as calcium and other minerals are converted into a new structure.

So my guess is sedimentary and metamorphic. What do I win if I'm right?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9063040#post9063040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
So my guess is sedimentary and metamorphic. What do I win if I'm right?
Click to expand...

What do you win?
How about a years supply of "Turtle Wax"娉"žÂ¢, and the opportunity to answer any other stupid question that comes to my pointy little brain?

I did send this to an "Ask a Scientist" site, and this was the answer I received - she didn't answer what type of rock it is, so I sent back to have her say, though by reading her answer, I kind of am leaning toward sedimentary...

"Live rock" that is used in aquariums is a chunk of fossil reef. So the limestone is in fact a rock at that point (having undergone chemical transformation) and it is no longer actually alive. However, the fossil limestone retains the original reef structure, complete with a lot of holes that give it a very high porosity. Marine microorganisms live in these environments, as well as different types of coralline algae. Those organisms are still alive, and they are what cause beneficial changes to
the chemistry of the water in the aquarium. Hope that helps!
Click to expand...
 
They are sedimentary rocks guys... Sedimentary rocks can certainly have chemical changes in them. Think cement... or think clay to shale (both sedimentary.

Many slates are shales that have undergone a metamorphic change. But what is that change? How does shale become slate?

Metamorphic rocks are rocks which undergo a profound chemical and physical change due to temperature and pressure. The metamorphic temperature is greater than 150C! The pressure is on the order thousands or hundreds of thousands of tons of pressure.

Metamorphic rocks are made from igneous or sedimentary rocks... but our live rock is certainly not metamorphic. There are certainly areas of the world where metamorphic rock outcrops or forms part of the reef.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9063040#post9063040 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
So my guess is sedimentary and metamorphic. What do I win if I'm right?
Click to expand...

Mr. Wilson, you must be a frakin' genius :D
I received this reply this morning...
If the rock retains its porous structure and still looks like a reef, it would be limestone which is a sedimentary rock. If the pores have all been compacted out of it and it has been subjected to pressure and temperature, it would convert into the metamorphic rock marble. So in the case of "live rock" it is almost certainly a sedimentary rock.
Click to expand...

However, I thought limestone that metamorphosed was chert, not marble?

So where would you like me to send that "Turtle Wax"娉"žÂ¢, Mr. Wilson?

And as to the other part of your prize, you might be interested this thread if you haven't seen it already. Maybe you can add some useful info and dispel a few myths ;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8758388#post8758388 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cchoffman
..There is probably no way to completely avoid aptasia.
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Not if you add corals or what not. The stuff at the LFS will even have them on the frag mounts - that or hydroids, lol. Only ways to completely control is to have a quarantine tank and dose with a aptasia treatment, until all are gone and have been for 6 weeks, OR unmount the corals and remount to clean, fresh mounts.
 
Aiptasia will find a way in the best of conditions. Enjoy the good stuff and deal with parasites as they come. No use in trying to live in a bubble.
 
Looking to make a fake rockwork, something like 10in thick wall with caves, tunnels, cracks.

I will do it out of the tank so I think using foam as inner material might float the rockwork, even with a 50lbs of hydraulic cement...

Any Idea? I don't want to put 4- 50lbs pails of cement in a 50G.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9160941#post9160941 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Icefire
Looking to make a fake rockwork, something like 10in thick wall with caves, tunnels, cracks.

I will do it out of the tank so I think using foam as inner material might float the rockwork, even with a 50lbs of hydraulic cement...

Any Idea? I don't want to put 4- 50lbs pails of cement in a 50G.
Click to expand...

Yes, floating rocks would be frustrating. I think the weight of the cement will act as sufficient ballast to keep it submersed. You could use egg-crate as rebar or for making a removable panel.

My next project is 50 tanks in a retail store. I plan on using an egg-crate panel as a base, so I can build (and cure) it out of the tank. I will silicone the rock panels in, one at a time over a few weeks as I have time. Working on a horizontal surface is much easier and you can make a mess without scratching the tank.

Cement is probably the second cheapest product to use as filler. The cheapest is oolitic limestone from a local quarry. It sells for about $25.00 per tonne, or "ton" in the USA. Just apply a coating of your choice for a realistic live rock look. It will be heavy, but will function well biologically and chemically.

You could cover each rock individually, or stack them together with a cement bond and top coat.

Another possibility would be to build something like an arch out of PVC pipe of various sizes with elbows and tees, then cover it with cement. I have done this on several occasions. If you are applying a thin coat, use less oyster shell for a greater (sticky) bond. I have also had success scoring the PVC with a saw to get a cross-hatch bonding surface.
 
I think I'll use some 2-3" ABS fitting to create some void (empty space).

I'll probably make the whole thing modular, like 5 pieces.

What make me worry is filtration, I won't have lot of live rock in the system, maybe 10lbs in the display and "maybe" 20lbs in the refugium. I don't want to use salt as I guess it would make the curing time way to long and defeat the reason to use hydraulic cement. Any idea on this? Crushed corals maybe? if I could get 20-40lbs of cheap dead/dry live rock rumble, I could crush them very small and it would help with the porosity.
 
I prefer PVC over ABS because it's certified for potable water.

The salt won't slow the process time, but it causes the mixture to dissolve when you're working on thin sections. I use screw drivers, drill bits, nails and lag bolts to make pours. The oyster shell also makes pours.

Here are some pictures of a 4" PVC coupling, covered in shotcrete and used as an overflow standpipe. The coating is only 0.25" but bonds due to scoring the PVC in a crosshatch pattern. It has been in place for 9 months, and is now covered in coraline algae. There was no salt used for texture, just hand shaping and tools. I removed some rocks and corals from the base so you could see the pipe and adapters.

IMG_6448.jpg


IMG_6446.jpg


IMG_6443.jpg


Here's a top view taken when it was first installed

IMG_4742.jpg


Here's another one when it was new. I wish I had covered the returns in shotcrete. They turned purple with encrusting coralines, and have some xenia coverage, but they still look like pipes. They're just pressure fit together, so I may upgrade them some day.

IMG_4739.jpg
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9166165#post9166165 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Hobster
With the use of Oyster shells in your mix, have you tested for increased phosphates in the water??
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No more phosphate than any other calcareous media (sand or rock). Phosphate will be adsorbed into the shell structure in your tank, converting inorganic phosphate to organophosphates. Iron-based phosphate removers will remove the organophosphates.

You could spray the shell with a weak acid if it tests for significant phosphates. Oyster shell contains some silate, but not enough to leach into the water.

Here's a link to the benefits of the shell matrix.
http://www.gvnr.com/79/2.htm
http://aiche.confex.com/aiche/2006/techprogram/P53148.HTM
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16915754
 
Mr Wilson
The info in those links would suggest that the shell is a good phosphate absorber, is this correct? If so why hasnt this been used is a filter medium?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9168044#post9168044 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by beareef19
Mr Wilson
The info in those links would suggest that the shell is a good phosphate absorber, is this correct? If so why hasnt this been used is a filter medium?
Click to expand...

Oyster shell is a common canister filter media for Koi. It removes much more than just phosphate through both chemical composition, and structure.

The problem is the bound phosphate must be exported, as it remains bio-available to nuisance algae. Algae will grow right on the site, and feed on the phosphate. Phosphate binders must be used to complete the process.

You could use it in a media bag in the sump and change it every month or so, according to load. It could also be used as "top dressing" for a remote DSB. You would have to skim the top layer off every month or so and replace it, or soak it in a weak acid solution to remove organophosphates.

This form of passive phosphate removal is what we had before aluminum, then iron binding agents. It isn't as efficient as these newer methods, but it's a cheap, renewable resource.

Randy Holmes Farley must have covered this topic in the chemistry forum, numerous times.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9170355#post9170355 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mr.wilson
Randy Holmes Farley must have covered this topic in the chemistry forum, numerous times. [/B]
Click to expand...

That is where I thought I read that crushed Oyster shells released a large amount of phosphate. I will check with Randy and ask him.
 
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