Reefkeepers Tackling Global Warming

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8734922#post8734922 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
If we can reduce demand the price of oil will go down. I'll save money. And since terrorism is funded by oil, the explosions will be smaller. Win win.
Mike

There is no shortage of oil, all we have to do to lower the price is increase output. But then profits go down, and we can't have that. Not that I think we should do that, as I'm not a big fan of burning more fossil fuels.

Also, terrorism might be funded by oil, but it's not caused by oil (not directly at least).

I'm not a big environmentalist. My motivation is more into the greed and safety side of the argument.

Lol, really?

 

[MCary]

Jer-z,

I think you are asking the wrong questions...

Is GLobal Warming Bad?
Can we do anything about it?

The whole global warming issue always turns into a big guilt trip. It has become a wedge issue to divide people into groups that can then be exploited for political power.

Like you said, we know the earth has warmed since the Ice Age, and Little Ice age, it is also apparant than in the US at least it has warmed significantly since the 1970's which were a cyclically cool period. The question is, is this a bad thing. Predictions of increase hurricane activity due to Global Warming this year were completely wrong. The reasons are unimportant, it only illustrates the inaccuracy of the predictions of results. I personally believe that computer models do a poor job of factoring the Earth self regulating ability. I say personally because I don't want to have to look it up for Hippie.

The second thing, can we stop and reverse it without going back to the stone age. You must remember that poverty is the number one killer in the world. Poverty kills 100x more people than heart disease. The middle class needs cheap energy to remain middle class. If anything we do to stop global warming collapses economies then the damage done will be far worse than anything global warming can do. Even if the problem is real, it may be too far along or too massive for us to fix. In which case, trying to fix it is a waste of resources. But you can still feel good about yourself if you separate your recyclables. Your really not helping, but we can pretend.

Mike

 

[MCary]

Hippie, sometimes I think you just like to argue. I haven't disagreed strongly to anything you've said. I would like to add something to your conspiracy thinking. Even if oil production was raised, it would do little good. Refineries are running at full capacity. And even though capacity at refineries have been expanded, environmentalists have blocked any plans for building new ones. I'm sure that at $30 a barrel your ideas might have to be considered, but at $80 every producer and oil company wants to sell everything it has. And the slipping back down of prices shows that they could not keep it at 80.

Mike

 

[JER-Z]

Mike,

I could't agree more.

Wes

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8735578#post8735578 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
Hippie, sometimes I think you just like to argue. I haven't disagreed strongly to anything you've said. I would like to add something to your conspiracy thinking. Even if oil production was raised, it would do little good. Refineries are running at full capacity. And even though capacity at refineries have been expanded, environmentalists have blocked any plans for building new ones. I'm sure that at $30 a barrel your ideas might have to be considered, but at $80 every producer and oil company wants to sell everything it has. And the slipping back down of prices shows that they could not keep it at 80.

Mike

Right, it's those darn tree huggers: http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Group...ies_limited_refineries_to_drive_up__0907.html

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8735489#post8735489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
Jer-z,

I think you are asking the wrong questions...

Is GLobal Warming Bad?
Can we do anything about it?

The whole global warming issue always turns into a big guilt trip. It has become a wedge issue to divide people into groups that can then be exploited for political power.

Like you said, we know the earth has warmed since the Ice Age, and Little Ice age, it is also apparant than in the US at least it has warmed significantly since the 1970's which were a cyclically cool period. The question is, is this a bad thing. Predictions of increase hurricane activity due to Global Warming this year were completely wrong. The reasons are unimportant, it only illustrates the inaccuracy of the predictions of results. I personally believe that computer models do a poor job of factoring the Earth self regulating ability. I say personally because I don't want to have to look it up for Hippie.

The second thing, can we stop and reverse it without going back to the stone age. You must remember that poverty is the number one killer in the world. Poverty kills 100x more people than heart disease. The middle class needs cheap energy to remain middle class. If anything we do to stop global warming collapses economies then the damage done will be far worse than anything global warming can do. Even if the problem is real, it may be too far along or too massive for us to fix. In which case, trying to fix it is a waste of resources. But you can still feel good about yourself if you separate your recyclables. Your really not helping, but we can pretend.

Mike

You really don't know what would happen with an increase in temp, do you? A complete restructuring of the planet's ecosystems will dwarf the cost of reducing emissions today. I'm sorry if that makes you feel guilty, apparently you're a sensitive guy.

 

[MCary]

You really don't know what would happen with an increase in temp, do you?

Nope, and neither do you.

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8737816#post8737816 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
Nope, and neither do you.

I most certainly do, it's basic ecology. Temperature affects everything in very predictable ways. Look into it.

Nice job of ignoring the refineries issue. I know it's easy to blow off oil company conspiracies as being paranoid delusions, but the fact is they are very well connected and financed mega-corporations that want to protect their empire. Oil is the keystone of the global economy and the American dollar. Don't you think that everything that may become a threat to that empire will be fought (i.e. CO2 causing GW, electric cars, nationalization of oil supplies, etc)? Don't you see a pattern?

 

[Rossini]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8739380#post8739380 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
I most certainly do, it's basic ecology. Temperature affects everything in very predictable ways. Look into it.

Nice job of ignoring the refineries issue. I know it's easy to blow off oil company conspiracies as being paranoid delusions, but the fact is they are very well connected and financed mega-corporations that want to protect their empire. Oil is the keystone of the global economy and the American dollar. Don't you think that everything that may become a threat to that empire will be fought (i.e. CO2 causing GW, electric cars, nationalization of oil supplies, etc)? Don't you see a pattern?

Nail on the head.

Wish more people had your intelligence and humilty towards a planet under major threat.

Why do all/most americans drive such large engine vehichles? There is no need is there?!

 

[scottras]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8748723#post8748723 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rossini
Nail on the head.

Wish more people had your intelligence and humilty towards a planet under major threat.

Why do all/most americans drive such large engine vehichles? There is no need is there?!

I heard recently that 50% of US fleet cars are less fuel efficient than a Model T. I will try and track down the source for you all if you want it.

I also read in this thread about the cost of adhearing to Kyoto. Well the cost not to is far worse. A lot of the world population lives next to the coast, and although people can move, the industries and cities that make civilization what it is today cannot.

 

[MCary]

A Model T weighed 1400 pounds, had a top speed of 44 mph and its engine turned out a whopping 20 hp. A better comparison would be to compare a Model T's fuel effeciency with my lawn mower.

Plus the engine did not run a large generator and air conditioning unit and had no emmission requirements. No mufflers or cataletic converters.

I also read in this thread about the cost of adhearing to Kyoto. Well the cost not to is far worse. A lot of the world population lives next to the coast, and although people can move, the industries and cities that make civilization what it is today cannot.

This is conjecture or an uninformed opinion that cannot be supported by the facts.

Mike

 

[scottras]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8784854#post8784854 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
A Model T weighed 1400 pounds, had a top speed of 44 mph and its engine turned out a whopping 20 hp. A better comparison would be to compare a Model T's fuel effeciency with my lawn mower.

Plus the engine did not run a large generator and air conditioning unit and had no emmission requirements. No mufflers or cataletic converters.



This is conjecture or an uninformed opinion that cannot be supported by the facts.

Mike

Still its a suprising for an almost 100 year old car. And lawn mowers today are a bad poluter for their size.

The declining ice shelfs of Greenland and Antarctica are fact. Where do you think that water is going to go? Thermal expansion will also play a smaller part in rising the oceans.

Two thirde of the world population live within 80km of the ocean. In Bangladesh 10 million people live within 1m of the ocean. Where do they go?

 

[RichardS]

Where do they go?

Swimming I guess.

We really need to start building more nuclear power plants to cut down on green house gas emissions.

 

[scottras]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8790459#post8790459 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by RichardS
Where do they go?

Swimming I guess.

We really need to start building more nuclear power plants to cut down on green house gas emissions.

plenty of cheaper ways to do it. Without the mess too.

 

[MCary]

The declining ice shelfs of Greenland and Antarctica are fact.

Actually you need to check your facts. Antartica which is comprised of 90% of the Earths ice is growing by 1000's of gigatons a year. The ice shelves themselves by ~26.8 gigatons per year. (measurements from synthetic aperture radar) This is an instance where what you've heard and what is real often diverge.

Here's the problem:

“The disintegration of the ice shelfâ€"1,260 square miles in area and 650 feet thickâ€"was most alarming to some because of the extraordinary rapidity of the collapse,” wrote the Washington Post on March 20. “The shelf is believed to have existed for as long as 12,000 years before regional temperatures began to rise, yet it disintegrated literally before scientists’ eyes over a 35-day period that began Jan. 31.”

Even though scientists did not contribute this to global warming, the Washington Post did.

John Daly:

“The Larsen break-up has been coming for years, and its demise has long been expected. ... It's dramatic, happens on a grand scale, but also very, very, natural.”

Hippie's loved peer reviewed magazines.

Nature recently published a study that found the Antarctic has actually been cooling since 1966. Another study in Science recently found the West Antarctic Ice Sheet has been thickening rather than thinning. (See “New studies throw cold water on warming theory,” Environment & Climate News, March 2002.)


Even though it is often said that a consensus of scientists believe in Global Warming, doomsday senerios of interupted ocean currents and huge sea level rises are only held by a few. Scientists are even backing off the Global Warming idea since most predictions have fell short by as much as 1100% and instead have adopted the term "Global Climate Change" They can then claim success by siting a changing weather pattern rather than a temperature.

Mike

 

[HippieSmell]

Please, oh please, don't tell me you're dredging John Daly up from his grave. That guy is dubious at best.

The Western ice sheet is apparently THICKENING, as is the ice at the center of Greenland (but melting at the coast). Warming oceans will provide more moisture, and moisture at the poles will freeze (it is below freezing after all). If it snows in the middle of the arctic, the snow pushes outward to form the ice shelves. More snow creates thicker shelves, but not necessarily a larger RANGE for the ice. It actually helps support GW, not disprove it, so thanks.

This is a nice article and video to show the range of arctic ice since the 70's.
http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/environment/seaice_meltdown.html
http://www.nasa.gov/mpg/157179main_mm4_320x240.mpg

 

[MCary]

Leave it to you Hippie to say that cooling temps are a sign of global warming. At least your consistant.

 

[HippieSmell]

Leave it to you to ignore everything that doesn't fit into your model. The only place that it might be cooling is the Antarctic, hardly a GLOBAL measure. Remember, it's called the "global warming" theory, not "if it's cooling in one area it must not be warming globally, I mean that's just silly to think that Earth would be so inconsistent" theory.

 

[MCary]

The topic of my post was Antartica not global warming. I was pointing out that the information on the Antartic shelf was inaccurate stemming mostly from a hyped story in the media linking the breakup to Global Warming where no link was being claimed by the scientists. We also have to remember that Antartica is a continent. The pennisula in question has seen warming but it is a very minute section of the entire continent. And as had been made very clear ad naseum, localized weather phenomenons neither supports nor negates global warming.

Leave it to you to ignore everything that doesn't fit into your model.

It is of course you who attempts to ignore or justify everything to fit your dogma. It is almost a religion with you. Anything that doesn't fit is spun until you can justify to yourself that it does.

Mike

 

[HippieSmell]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8799914#post8799914 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
The topic of my post was Antartica not global warming. I was pointing out that the information on the Antartic shelf was inaccurate stemming mostly from a hyped story in the media linking the breakup to Global Warming where no link was being claimed by the scientists.
Mike

Scientists aren't claiming a link huh? Where have you been?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8799914#post8799914 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
It is of course you who attempts to ignore or justify everything to fit your dogma. It is almost a religion with you. Anything that doesn't fit is spun until you can justify to yourself that it does.
Mike

There's a very simple reason why the data seems to fit the global warming model. Did you ever stop to think it's because it's...I don't know...true?