Reefkeepers Tackling Global Warming

Status
Not open for further replies.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9155822#post9155822 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
Although maybe not quite as stong, I do agree with Hippie in pinciple that people should get as deep of an understanding as they can with any issue the choose to advocate. I am tired of hearing the "catch phrases" being parroted back to me by people who have proxied their thinking. When someone says "A consensus of scientists" and I ask, "Name one?" they should be able to name at least one or the name of an organization at least.

Anyway, the reason I posted was to ask Hippie a question. You said that the US was a CO2 sink. I believe that it is due to the foilage right? I am curious why planting trees is not more predominantly mentioned as a way to reduce CO2. Any thoughts on this? Should it be? Would it work?

Mike
Yup, growing vegetation sequesters CO2. There are many organizations that promote planting trees to reduce CO2, but it's overshadowed by the push to reduce emissions. The reason is that planting trees doesn't just sequester CO2, it also alters solar radiation dynamics. In the lower latitudes (tropical rainforests) the trees absorb CO2, but they also reflect sunlight because of the clouds they create (because of the water released through respiration). In the middle to high latitudes, cloud formation isn't as prominent, so the dark green leaves absorb sunlight and actually raise local temperatures slightly. I don't think middle to high latitude trees have a net global warming effect, it's more of a wash. However, like I said, lower latitude forests are very important for mitigating GW, not to mention the enormous biodiversity wealth.

Here's a good paper:
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/corvallis/mdr/mapss/marland2003.pdf
 
In regards to tree's being good CO2 sinks, and planting of forests... The way we cut them down is important. Clearcutting isn't really a natural distrubance so forests have a hard time growing back. By using cutting methods modelled after natural disturbances (i.e. forest fires) we can obtain wood and keep our forests.

Just a thought.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9142978#post9142978 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HippieSmell
You truly are completely clueless. Have fun being an idiot.


'Ya see here, this is a perfect example of a personal attack. It's not okay here, and if it is now, or becomes a pattern in your posts, you will lose the ability to post here.

[flamealert]
 
Confucious says, if you allow someone to make you angry, you have already lost the argument. Or was that Carrot-top?
 
I think it was Toomy Chong. :)

LINK to this article. Interesting comments after the article. And on Digg too.

As the fervor over global warming continues to permeate the discussions of politicians and the media alike, I’ve noticed a stock set of anecdotal arguments from those who choose to remain unconvinced of anthropogenic global warming. A lot of their arguments remind me of the arguments of those who believe NASA faked the moon landings: “Well, in their pictures you don’t see the stars, so it must have been done in a studio.” Um, have you ever tried taking a picture of the night sky? How many stars do you see? But I digress...

While RealClimate has a solid collection of responses to common contrarian arguments, I have yet to see a concise, simple document targeted at the average reader for debunking the global warming denier crowd. NASA has hardly bothered to produce a response to moon landing deniers, finding it impossible to do so with a straight face at the preposterousness of the claims. Given the gravity of global warming, we similarly must respond seriously to the denialists even if it pains your face to keep from laughing in theirs.

This is my collection of rebuttals for the most prominent arguments put forth by the folks who deny anthropogenic climate change.

1. Mars is undergoing global warming, therefore humans can not be causing it on Earth.

No. Mars is not undergoing global warming. The Mars Global Surveyor detected a decrease in the mass of the South Polar Cap between 1999 and 2005. First, this is a regional (not global) warming localized to the south pole of mars. There is no similar data for any corresponding temperature change at either the north pole or any other part of Mars. Secondly, since a Martian year is 687 days, this represents only 3 data points, which does not equate to the long-term trend we see on Earth. (Indeed, we see dramatic peaks and valleys in the yearly temperature data on Earth.) Lastly, research has shown that Mars’ climate is far more volatile than our own, and is quite sensitive to changes in dust storm activity and orbital variations. If most of the planets and moons in the solar system were exhibiting warming trends, that would be a valid point for argument.

2. Volcanoes release much more carbon dioxide than humans.

No. Volcanic activity is 0.02 to 0.05 Giga-tons/year. [Note: 1 Peta-gram (PgC) = 1 Gigaton (Gt)] Humans produce 8 Gt/yr (and climbing). Volcanoes elicit a far more dominating cooling effect due to atmospheric dispersal of particulates and sulfur dioxide. In addition, there has been no recent increase in volcanic activity â€"œ and the volcanic activity we have seen has actually slowed global warming.

3. The Earth (and its carbon cycle) is too big for humans to affect it.

While the Earth exchanges a great deal of carbon between the ocean, atmosphere, soil, and biosphere, it is the net balance which is of greatest concern to us. Without human influence, this regulatory process produces a net carbon increase of 0.0 Gt/year. During 1850-2000, through a combination of fossil fuel burning, cement manufacturing, and land-use changes, humans added a net 174 Gt of carbon. This caused the majority of an increase from 288 ppm (parts per million) to 369.5 ppm of CO2. As mentioned above, we currently add 8 Gt/year to the atmosphere.

4. The sea level has not changed.

Yes, it has. Since 1900, sea level has risen by about 35 cm (13.8 inches). This change in sea level is accelerating.

5. Scientists predicted imminent global cooling in the 1970s.

No, they did not. Some magazines reported it as such, but scientists understood that their preliminary, localized, and uncertain measurements could not be extrapolated to either the world or a long-term trend. They did indicate that the potential for an ice age in the next 20,000 years was possible, but they made no predictions. Climate science has advanced tremendously in the intervening years, as has the data, and the conclusions for our climate are far more certain.

6. Scientists get paid big bucks to skew their data to indicate global warming.

No, they don’t. There is little commercial funding available for research designed to support global warming. It is far more lucrative to produce research denying global warming. With little exception, funding for climate research is provided by governments, which do not attach conditions to the results of the research (OK…maybe some conditions).
Logically, of course, it doesn’t make sense that corporations or governments would want to fund skewed studies that indicate their entire way of living is threatening the planet. And with tens of thousands of scientists producing research indicating human-induced global warming, the task to compromise the ethics of so many esteemed professionals would be, to say the least, challenging.

7. Variations in solar output cause global warming

While global warming could not occur without solar influx, the sun’s output has been relatively stable for as long as we’ve studied it, and has in fact been declining in recent years. Solar variability plays a very small role, if any, in global warming.

8. All temperature data is suspect due to the urban heat island effect.

That argument might be valid if all measurements were taken in the heart of cities. But they aren’t. Thermometers in the middle of the arctic, in barren deserts, in the middle of oceans, on top of mountains, and deep in the wilderness all agree on a global temperature rise. Unless you believe that the urban heat island effect can affect satellites, this claim is clearly wrong.

9. Because it snowed a great deal and got very cold in some areas, global warming is not happening.

First, increased precipitation is predicted by global warming. Increased snowfall events are further evidence of global warming, not proof against it. Second, regional temperature variations occur. It is the global average temperature which is of greatest concern. And third, temperatures vary. Even record cold global temperatures for an entire year would not be out of step with global warming. Global warming is about the long-term average trend.

10. It is not possible to distinguish the effects of human activities from natural processes with regard to CO2.

That is not true. We know how much CO2 is produced from burning a barrel of oil and we know how many barrels of oil we use. Similarly, we know how much CO2 certain types of plants absorb and we have solid estimates for how many of each type of plant exist. The same goes for volcanoes, the ocean, and the soil. It is a matter of collecting this data, which is the task undertaken by hundreds of scientists. Estimates vary, but they all agree on one point -- humans are causing global warming.
 
Wow, now I feel insulted. Swing and a miss Buddha. "No its not", "This is not true", "No they don't". I'm sorry, what make this guy such a genius that he can make these statements? He hasn't even picked the most common rebuttals, he just chose some he could argue against the easiest. Plus he even starts out insulting the skeptics by suggesting that they are whack jobs, insinuating that the advocates somehow have a monopoly on clear thinking. How many pro global warming advocates, with Jessica Simpson intelligence, example Bill Mahr from HBO. make stupid, uneducated statements like, "It's hot outside, any idiot can tell there's global warming!" Let's ignore the fact that New York is having its coldest Winter in 2 years. As we should, because anedotal local weather evidence is meaningless.

Listen, Global Warming theory may be exactly whats happening. But to say that skeptics do not have a legitamate point of view on this subject is just plain wrong. Demonizing and insulting those that disagree just drives this point of view underground, which ensures that it is never heard. This is indoctrination, not education.

Mike
 
I get to listen to David Suzuki lecture this week. Lucky me. He's a guy who knows exactly where it is at. Look him up if you don't know him.
 
Great man. You're lucky Ross!

Mike, lol, are we having a conversation I'm not part of? I wasn't insulting or 'swinging' so I don't even know how I could 'miss', lol. All I did was cut and paste a blurb from an article if anyone was interested. If you feel like responding to the author, then I suggest that's who you should contact. Sorry.
 
Last edited:
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9147811#post9147811 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefBuddha
I am sorry if I came off that way Hippie, and anyone else whom I may have offended. I obviously include myself in the 'reef geeks who are not remotely qualified to challenge UN reports' club :D, so naturally I'm not offended by the idea. Frankly I find it a bit odd that any reef geek would be ____ enough to think that they have answers that the best minds on the subject missed.

Which brings me to the reason behind my point. The reason I was drilling home the point about being unqualified, is that often there are some less, uh, 'aware' voices who casually claim that this science is a hoax, all hype, or something to that affect. I really didn't mean to suggest that all discussion is pointless, although I can see how it may have seemed that way. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that there was no value in the discussion that you guys were having, which was very informative. So again, I do apologize.
Thanks for apologizing, and I'm sorry about some of my previous posts. FWIW though, none of us are trying to come off as being "qualified experts", but there are still many valid questions out there, and it doesn't take an expert to ask them. Also, just because you include yourself in an insult (i.e. "stupid fish geek"), it doesn't make it any less insulting to others. You may be ok with it, but I try to keep my self-hate to a minimum ;)
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9157887#post9157887 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DgenR8
'Ya see here, this is a perfect example of a personal attack. It's not okay here, and if it is now, or becomes a pattern in your posts, you will lose the ability to post here.
I figured that comment would get me in trouble. Some obvious frustration was showing through. Sorry.
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9166021#post9166021 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by MCary
Confucious says, if you allow someone to make you angry, you have already lost the argument. Or was that Carrot-top?
I must be a pushover then. I'm a patient and non violent person, but I definitely have my buttons.
 
None of us are trying to come off as being "qualified experts", but there are still many valid questions out there, and it doesn't take an expert to ask them.

I agree, but I also suspect it often takes an expert to answer them sufficently. :)

I am sorry if you were offended by my use of the term 'reef geek' but I was under the impression that it merely refers to someone who's an avid reefkeeper.

I try to avoid the term 'stupid' myself. I merely said if by 'stupid' you meant we're uninformed and under qualified. By definition, I think relative 'ignorance' is a more appropriate term. And that is not an insult to reef geeks either, it just means that in relation to hundreds of climatologists, we're all unaware, uninformed, and lacking specific knowledge on climatology. I doubt that is much of a leap of logic.

no worries. :)
 
To be fair Buddha, I know you think you had a valid point, but you are ignorant (using your term) of the education and depth of knowledge of us reefkeepers. Reefkeeping is just a hobby and the people doing it run the gammit from high school students to Ph.D.'s in every field imaginable. Rosseau is studying this field in college, I am a scientist by trade so I understand scientific method, I don't remember what Hippie does, but even though we go round and round, he is anything but ignorant on this topic.

As far as the experts go. This is a very large and complex field. I do not believe any one person studies or understand the entire aspect of it. The problem is broken into smaller sub-specialties. NASA scientists study the atmosphere, others study ice cores, marine specialists study oceans, computer experts run models on super computers. Then hopefully the date is collated into a single coherent result. But I doubt the an expert on ice cores can tell you about the stratosphere as well as the NASA guy. So by your standard this ice core geek is ignorant. The point I'm trying to make is that no one by their research alone is an expert on the entire issue of global warming. They read the research of others. We are just as capable of doing the same thing. We are also capable of understanding what we read.

Mike
 
Mike sorry but I really think you misunderstood me completely. I never insinuated that we're ignorant in the 'general' sense, in fact I specifically stated otherwise. I used the term 'relative' repeatedly in my posts to illustrate exactly that - ignorance is relative. Of course the audience here runs the gammit and contains plenty of educated perspectives. That is not the point at all, in fact your second statement i think does deal with the point.

The point is, nobody can be an expert in everything. Of course specialists in every field have trouble understanding outside of their niche. You made a very good point about the fact that there are plenty of subcategories within climate science that are entire fields unto themselves, and likely he specialists within those field have difficulty themselves crossing boundaries.

But then - and this is the part i think supports what I'm trying to say - how much MORE displaced are the members of a reef board, regardless of 'general' eduction level? nobody is saying we cannot read and understand, of course we can, but we also should keep things in perspective.
 
Last edited:

The best option is Nuclear and Hippie isn't going to stand for that. Large Hot Wheels for everybody.

Mike

The left won't stand for it because they are not interested in talking about solutions. GW is just another "cause" for them to proclaim how terrible we humans are. If they truly believed that GW was going to destroy the earth as we know it then they would be open to all solutions not just ones that fit into their "green" world view. Especially nuclear energy since it is a far safer energy source than oil.

Now I'm just a dumb texan reefer who voted for the evil one twice and would do it again if I could but it seems to me that this has become a completely pointless thread. The earth is getting warmer, no need to debate it. GHG is responsible, no need to debate that. Are we evil humans the cause? Who cares! We need to reduce our oil dependency anyways. We know it's going to run out some day and why keep funding governments to build up their military arsenals and then have to go to war with them. So the only question becomes HOW do we get away from fossil fuels and still move forward.

If the left would make alternative energy sources part of the war on terror discussion they could probably get something done. You know, let's not fight our enemies when we can just bankrupt them. Soviet what?
 
GW is a problem because liberals just want to talk down to people? :confused: . Give me a break with that tired old whining point.

And the point about alternative energy sources helping ween us off of foreign oil is well publicized, but not everything needs to be tied into the "war on terror". The "war on terror" is being used for justifying too much unrelated stuff as it is.
 
We have a long standing policy of not allowing discussions of a religious or political nature. This thread has obviously gone political, is therefore not permitted, and is now closed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top