Reefkeeping is NOT under attack

The agenda is just to have power and control over the individual. They ban the corals, the sellers will have to stop selling them, there will be a lucky few, who will absolutely have a black "swap" market for obscene profit (I'm not against that). And then they dust off their hands, see that their little power grab test worked, and plan for the next ban.

I See, and They would be Free Masons, The Illuminati, Ancient aliens. Things are becoming clear now. First THEY start out with a coral ban then on to world domination and ultimately we become mindless drones regurgitating talking points.
 
I See, and They would be Free Masons, The Illuminati, Ancient aliens. Things are becoming clear now. First THEY start out with a coral ban then on to world domination and ultimately we become mindless drones regurgitating talking points.

Gotta drag Satan in, remember, they worship him.

ooops, sorry, too much fluoride today.
 
Certainly, there will be a lot of chaff, but to claim that insiders at NMFS are becoming hostile to hobbyists who express their opinion (constructive or not) only lends to the idea that NMFS do not care about science or conservation but to their already settled view on this topic.

Keep in mind NMFS reviewed the data PIJAC submitted on behalf of our hobby and revised their decision because of it. They are not adhering to dogma. The type of information PIJAC supplied is what they're after. Hobbyist submitting comments in the line of "HANDS OFF MY CORALS!" or defense of the hobby (which contextually has nothing to do with science nor conservation) are not.
 
Who funds Centre for Biodiversity?

...Plus other stuff....(John's edit of quote)

Does it matter? They are private. They, like us, have the right to petition NOAA.

Collection bans are not enforceable by NOAA. Without the income from exporting, there is less motivation to collect. ESA can enforce importation restrictions. Also listing can have a motivational effect on local laws and enforcement.

I think the petition is a good thing because it gets us talking about the issues of reef degradation. Gets us thinking and possibly putting pressure on 'the system' that collects and delivers animals to us. It is a horribly wasteful system. The industry is not that motivated to improve.

Does anyone have any data/educated guess on the percentage of animals caught (I'm thinking fish here) that actually survive a year in the final destination tank?

I personally like it because it forced me to learn all sorts of stuff about the ESA, and how species get listed.
 
Just for the record I fully support an outright ban on all taking of any wild coral and believe we should get by in our hobby on "home grown" coral alone. What I do not support is a blanket approach to banning all commerce in a particular coral when the decision is based on politics and pseudoscience and will in fact hurt the protection of biodiversity rather than help.



Now let's start talking about the "science" behind NOAA/NMFS. In particular let's examine the "data" on Euphyllia Paradivisa. . . .




As for your exercise, as someone who is familiar with data, you should know you can not extrapolate a conclusion from the information you submitted without committing all sorts of logical fallacies. If we're to "extrapolate" the way you want me to for red tailed black sharks (Epalzeorhynchos bicolour), we would conclude they are plentiful in the wild.

I now have a better understanding of what you perceive as "data."

So you don't like extrapolated data because it requires certain further refinement to make it accurate . . . I see . . . well guess what the entire basis for listing Euphyllia Paradivisa as threatened comes from one giant double extrapolation of data. There was no "scientific survey", no actual eyeballs counting euphyllia, just one big exercise in extrapolation.

Then there's the question of why this coral versus others? If the same extrapolation was used for other coral species what made Euphyllia different? I have a guess for that answer, and it's the opening line of one of the reports on Euphyllia Paradivis:

Justification:
This species is widespread and uncommon throughout its range. However, it is heavily harvested for the aquarium trade and extensive reduction of coral reef habitat due to a combination of threats

but guess what else . . . there is not one supporting fact or figure in the report for this blanket statement, no dollar amount, no colony count, no shipments docket, nothing except the blanket statement.


So here is how they estimated how much Euphyllia there is and what is happening to the population . . .

Estimates of coral cover loss, defined as the percentage of reefs with greater than 90% coral cover loss over at least the past 15 to 20 years (Wilkinson 2004); and of critically declining reef, defined as the percentage of reefs with between 50-90% coral cover loss and likely to join the total coral loss category within 10 to 20 years (Wilkinson 2004); were used as a surrogates for population reduction in combination with each species’ life history traits. For each species, a weighted average was calculated by multiplying the area of reef within the species distribution by the percent of total coral cover loss or the combined percent of total coral cover loss and critically declining reef reported from 17 different geographical regions defined by the 2004 GCRMN report (Wilkinson 2004). Only partial or complete occurrence of a species in a region was used and marginal inclusions were discounted. This method assumes that the percent coral cover loss reported for a region is the same across the entire region. The relationship between coral cover loss and population reduction is not always linear, however, as coral cover loss can occur in areas of lower or higher population density, and therefore can represent a slower or faster decline of the actual population size (Rodríguez and Gaston 2002).




And, here's a comment from the 2004 Wilkinson report upon which most of these "extrapolations" were based . . . notice the "scientific" estimates were . . . wait for it . . . WRONG
Until recently, the greatest concentration of coral reef biodiversity (known as the ‘coral triangle’) was considered to be centred on Indonesia, Philippines, and Papua New Guinea (the solid line on the map). However, a recent survey of the Solomon Islands led by The Nature Conservancy, has shown that the coral triangle should be extended further east to include this archipelago (dotted line on map). Not only should the Solomon Islands be included in the triangle, but also it contains the second highest biodiversity in the region after Central Indonesia (REA Chapter 9). This was not predicted prior to the survey, and the results show that the high diversity is due to a wide range of habitats in a small area and the generally good condition of the reefs



Oh but wait there's more . . . it turns out science as recently as last year grossly underestimated the recovery ability of corals . . .


Last year, marine biologist Peter Mumby took a dive into the Rangiroa lagoon, in French Polynesia. What he saw shocked him so much he thought he might be lost.

He’d expected to be surrounded by death, by a reef of dying coral whose skeletons were slowly crumbling into the sea. Instead, majestic, olive-green Porites corals, the size of large hippos, carpeted the sea floor, providing a playground for parrotfishes and the occasional shark that weaved between the cauliflower-shaped giants.

“I was absolutely astonished and delighted,” says Mumby, a professor at the Marine Spatial Ecology Lab of the University of Queensland, Australia.
He had good reason to be. In 1998, a heatwave, which raised ocean temperatures, had caused corals worldwide to go a deathly white - a process called bleaching - and die.

When Mumby had visited Tivaru on the Rangiroa lagoon six months later, he’d found a vast majority of the region’s prolific Porites coral, normally the hardiest of coral species, had followed suit. Based on the known growing rates for the species, Mumby predicted it would take the Porites nearly 100 years to recover, not 15.

“Our projections were completely wrong,” he says. “Sometimes it is really nice to be proven wrong as a scientist, and this was a perfect example of that.”


That'll be it for round 2. I don't expect to convince Leonard of anything, and I'll repeat my opening line once again. I fully support a ban on the taking of all wild coral, but I do not support a total ban on commerce even in one coral when that coral is well established in captivity, and I most certainly do not accept the "science" of the NOAA.

Just because someone has a degree in a scientific field doesn't make them perfect. They are subject to the same biases as anyone else especially when money or reputation is involved.
 
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My understanding is the Hawaiian reefs are some of the best managed reefs in the world with constant monitoring of sustainability. Yet they still want a ban. Why?

Unfortunately, and the same goes for the proposed rule, I'm affraid many people are having trouble comprehending the fact that there are motivated people who do not believe any animal should be kept in captivity. Especially ornamental marine animals. Therefore they will do anything in their power to try to put an end to it. This was a calculated approach at banning the coral trade and it is working as planned. They've made it this far with conjecture and no science to back up their claims. The process for which they determined this whole mess is so far removed from science it's silly.

I agree comments need to be intelligent, pointed, well written and individuals should refrain from any derogatory remarks, but also keep in mind, while we may be making our claims in the comments on this, there is another side who are pushing everyone to make comments for a ban. You can bet this is being shared on social media to provoke "anyone" to comment for the passage of the rule. Are they ignoring these comments too? Even if they don't provide any science. I have to disagree with this article. I've seen this first hand in court where parties have just sat there silent, by the advice of their council, and then the ruling came down and of course then they wanted to be vocal and the judge looks at them and says with a smile, "well you should have said something when you had the chance." Just because you don't have exact data to add to your comment does not mean someone should refrain from making a comment and sharing their thoughts.

Furthermore, being that this whole mess started based on opinion and "comments" who's to say how they're going to use the information... Tally up who is for and against? Or have they already made up their mind and they're just following the rules requiring a public comment period knowing full well what they intend on doing?

I said this on asylumdown's thread, I am 100% for protecting our oceans and environment. But, the marine hobby is a drop in the ocean compared to the real threats our reefs face. Like pollution and when that 200 foot freighter smashes a few hundred yards of reef every year. If you showed me science that revealed we are hurting our reefs then by all means ban the importation of the species in jeopardy. But also keep in mind, we are the worlds coral seed bank. If it came down to it and the government was willing to orchestrate collective reef restoration, WE would be the ones they would call on.
 
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I'm not interested in a debate here and I have no opinion to force on any of you but I haven't seen anyone look at NOAA's integrity and past practices, so I will just leave these few links here:

http://www.carolinacoastonline.com/news_times/news/article_e4843804-5a76-11e2-ad03-0019bb2963f4.html

http://www.mass.gov/ago/news-and-updates/press-releases/2013/2013-05-30-noaa-lawsuit.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6WGG0B9Vic&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIdzt53FKtY

If you see this post as "it makes us look bad" or "they are looking at these comments" I'm not interested in defending or attacking you, neither will I dignify your comment with a response. This isn't the USSR it's the top of the free world, end of story.

For the record, I have yet to buy a single coral collected from the wild or actually pay for/purchase a coral anywhere, I am also for conservation and against wild collection.

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction." -Einstein ;)
 
Don't hold back. Tell us what you really think!

That is such an insulting few lines. Do you really know all the NOAA employees? You have some personal knowledge of their 'tree huggieness'?

Who do we trust? Those who profit from an activity or those that oversee and implement laws, we as a people, put into action. Just a reminder, the ESA was proposed and implemented by a noted 'left wing tree hugger', Richard Nixon.

When you write statements like that you will not be able to discuss the issue with those 'tree huggers'. You loose all chance of having any say in the decisions made.


Here you go . . . Who do we trust? Yeah RAH RAH Let's go NOAA!!

Mr. McKeon said there was a lot of corruption in the NMFS system and that Dr. Lubchenco “turned a blind eye to it.” He referred specifically to an investigation in 2010 done by the U.S. Department of Commerce’s Office of the Inspector General of the NMFS Office of Law Enforcement. The Inspector General was looking into accusations of mismanaging federal fisheries law enforcement; then-OLE Director Dale Jones was caught initiating an office-wide effort to shred documents and records after meeting with the Inspector General.
 
Now this is perfect!!! Thank you!

It clearly demonstrates how knowledge and principles vary from one person to the next. How much knowledge does one need? What principles do you need and how much should you consider them?

"Now that wasn't that hard, was it?" is a perfect example. I knew the definition and clearly wanted one to look at the deeper meaning of what or who defines knowledge or how much is required - does one have to have a published paper on the subject? Just google it? Have a degree in it? It's still an opinion. The copy and pasting of a google search with no thought is a great example of what one might consider informed while others might consider that quite the opposite as no thought went beyond it.

Ah, your question was rhetorical! I didn't get that.

As to what NOAA considers informed opinion, I have no idea. I do know my opinion is not informed!

WARNING: opinion ahead! :)

I'll bet the NOAA crew has a good feel for informed-ness. Read Chris Jury's part 2 about clown fish listing. He does a real good job and is obviously informed. He lays out facts with citations, makes assumptions based on those facts, describes how he made those assumptions and comes to conclusions. It's like science. It's beautiful! :)
 
Here you go . . . Who do we trust? Yeah RAH RAH Let's go NOAA!!

While I am generally skeptical of this process, I'm not sure that the accusation of a fishing industry representative, Mr. McKeon, characterizing Dr. Lubchenco as "turning a blind eye" to an OIG investigation in 2010 indicts the methods and motivations of NMFS in this specific issue dear to us or the methods and motivations of the entire NOAA agency.
 
Well, what's your solution?

Look at my articles I wrote for AA and my posts here on RC. I have attacked Leonard for creating a tank with "placed" corals and not actually growing corals from frags. The NOAA can regulate coral "taking" without a blanket ban, but that is anathema to the politics of conservation so just as abortion and gay marriage create 180 degree divisiveness so to keeping ocean creatures in captivity creates diametrically opposed views. There is no answer accept to vote.
 
I almost forgot to mention the process by which the 20 corals were selected. How would the average layman guess a species is deemed to be threatened? Most likely you would think scientists would count the animals and then make a decision based on the facts. Well that's not how the NOAA works. First they took the "extrapolated" data from a half dozen scientists, and they asked 70 other "scientists" to vote on the data provided by the original half dozen. The vote was "What do you think is the probability of this coral becoming extinct by 2100" and if a coral got enough votes it was listed as "threatened". So votes by people who read papers about double extrapolated data not actual eyeball surveys were the determining factor for "threatened" or not.

Yeah, that's "science".
 
Personally I'm wiling to vote/support a complete ban on selling of corals which would eliminate the incentives in "taking" there are so many coral species in aquaculture the "business" of corals is not necessary for any committed hobbyist to still enjoy the hobby with a fully stocked tank. Not to mention it would weed out the folks who fill a tank with store bought corals only so that they can all die in 6 months due to lack of experience and patience, it would force people to learn from each other before wrecking a tank full of livestock. If I had a dollar for every time a friend bought a 20g tank at their LFS and the same LFS recommended a tang, angel and a bag full of corals I'd be a rich man (I know someone who did this 2 weeks ago despite my advice) and sorry this isn't meant to attack LFS, I know many locally who are superb with their knowledge and ethics, but for each one there are 3 who operate for the $

Furthermore I would love to see the same regulation to allow donations of aquacultured coral to conservation agencies for placement or seeding in the wild. I find this to be something that would make the hobby a 100 times more rewarding knowing that my little tank at home can contribute to the preservation of the creatures I love so much. A little bit of selflessness and consideration can change the world entirely. Unfortunately authoritarian opinion seems to rule in these modern days, as demonstrated over and over by those claiming superior intellect over others.

This is a bit extreme yes but I consider it the lesser of all evils, worst case scenario that I'm willing to accept & live with
 
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