Refigum? What size do i need.

[tmz]

Deep sand beds work but you can do very well without one. An in display shallow bed of 1 to 2inches with live rock will accomplish much of the nitrification and denitrification a deeper bed will according to some studies. Both work in my experience.

A remote deep sand without sand critters and light to move food abd water into the depths will not reduce many nitrates in my experience.

I would not use a wet and dry. it will nitrify very well but will produce and contribute nitrate.Your live rock should porocess all your ammonia and nitrite very well and will also process nitrate,.The rock won't processs the nitrate from the wet and dry as well as it will the nitrate that is formed on it's own surfaces.

I prefer bare bottom chaetomorpha refugia .Macro algae over sand is a maintenance headache in my experience, as the algae exudes copius materials that are difficult to vacuum and it is generally difficult to keep the sand reasonablt clean.. The algae itself provides nice habibtant for microfuana without sand..

If you do use extra rock in your sump or refugium sue larger chunks not small bits (rubble). The later will collect detritus and wont likely do much denitrification for your trouble.

Somewhere in the 20% of tank size range works for me. Bigger is better.

 

[Whys]

I have never had measurable nitrates in my system. I have strong reason to believe this is because of my 5" DSB in the display. I am not aware of any denitrification that takes place in a shallow sandbed, but some does take place deep within liverock.

 

[tmz]

May be the reason your nitrates are low:may not. Glad it's working for you .
If you search deep sand beds you'll find lots of debate(one I do not wish to engage in since it is truly endless without a resolution one way or the other) and some studies that strongly suggest denitrification occurs within a few milimeters of the surface of the bed
I personally like them in some situations for the critters and for certain fishes that need them but they are not a necessity for denitrification. In my opinion and experience their increased effectiveness vs. shallower beds in controlling nitrate is dubious . There is also a risk of hydrogen sulfide formation if the bed is not properly channeled particularly as they get older to consider..

 

[troublesx10]

ok, so your saying that refig with out sand and with chaeto/rock, due to maintaince issues, avoid the wetdry all together--- and refig to be 20% (is that slow flow) and 1-2 inch sand in display - what about maintaince issues with the display sand? will good water circulation help in the process? i.e. wave maker ?
question--- i am having my tank delivered/setup when i return home in 2-3 weeks, included is the sand/rock/starter fish------ do i want that--- been reading that you want to run without anything to develop ammonia cycle/nitro cycle--- person seting up suggesting running lights 4 hours day right after setup---- i am not sure about this because i have been reading to setup and leave without light for couple of weeks. i am debating a refig , wet dry sytem--- because wet dry comes with system, but person setting up saying alll i need it wet dry + skimmer---- however most of what i have been reading states that skimming will remove good and bad elements/properties/bacteria hence requiring bio longer to set up and work effectively. i have been doing research inline with refig/wet dry combo,,, run skimmer/uv couple hours day (mostly at night) and let system set up on thru that---- will that work better for creating more stable system in long run?

 

[tmz]

You don't need a starter fish. The live rock will provide plenty of decaying material for cycling.

No light equals less nuisance algae during cycling but the nuisance algae takes up nutirents and helps the process along if you harvest it. The tank will be lit eventually so I think something like 4 hours per day is a very good compromise.

A wave maker is a very good thing to use during cycling and later. You can also blow off the rock with a turkey baster periodically to free up detritus for skimmer export.

You can go bare bottom , shallow sand bed or deep sand bed depending on the aesthetics you want and the types of critters you plan to keep. If you are going to do an sps high flow tank sand especially finer grained material may blow around a bit.

Maintaining sand can be done with some critters such as nausarius snails to stir it up or/ a and shifiting goby. Alternatively, occasional puffing with a turkey baster works very well.

I would personally skim during cycling. The bacteria that would be removed would be waterborn. The bacteria you need for nitrification and denitrification are benthic. Without skimming all the organic material realeased by the die off in the rock will completely decay in the tank. On the one hand this will give your biofilter a lot of food. On the other it may expose your rock and substrate to highly elevated phosphate levels some of which will precipitate on the rock and leach back later.

 

[Whys]

As I said, DSBs seem to be losing favor. Personally, I'm still a believer, but I also keep a DSB for more than just the denitrification. I consider it a more realistic and natural environment that may confer additional benefits to the overall biotope. This is also why I keep it in the display rather than the fuge.

Slow flow isn't necessary and not everyone believes it provides any benefit. I do and have explain why, but the purpose of your own fuge may be different. If you can easily accommodate it, then give it some thought, otherwise I wouldn't worry too much. If you just want Chaeto, then a fast flow might actually be better.

 

[troublesx10]

so do you think it would be more beneficial to add a refigium to the filter sump when cycling or add it later, and what about chaeto algea--- add sooner rather than later?

Without skimming all the organic material realeased by the die off in the rock will completely decay in the tank. On the one hand this will give your biofilter a lot of food. On the other it may expose your rock and substrate to highly elevated phosphate levels some of which will precipitate on the rock and leach back later.

why would it result in higher elvated phosphate levels

how does the phosphate become stronger/weaker thru the cycling process?

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14808831#post14808831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whys
As I said, DSBs seem to be losing favor.

and before you know it macro algae will be falling by the waste side with carbon dosing.

 

[tmz]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14808831#post14808831 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Whys
As I said, DSBs seem to be losing favor. Personally, I'm still a believer, but I also keep a DSB for more than just the denitrification. I consider it a more realistic and natural environment that may confer additional benefits to the overall biotope. This is also why I keep it in the display rather than the fuge.

Slow flow isn't necessary and not everyone believes it provides any benefit. I do and have explain why, but the purpose of your own fuge may be different. If you can easily accommodate it, then give it some thought, otherwise I wouldn't worry too much. If you just want Chaeto, then a fast flow might actually be better.

I agree with much of that. .I do keep a deep sand bed(4.5 inches) in one of my integrated display tanks and in one of my integrated propoagation tanks for many of the reasons noted, I just no longer think depth equals more denitrifiction than shallower beds. live rock and other methods.After 7 years with good maintenance, I still like it.

I also think fast flow over chaetomorpha is a good thing. I run 400gph through each of two 30 gallon chaetomorpha refugia.

 

[Whys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14808894#post14808894 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sisterlimonpot
and before you know it macro algae will be falling by the waste side with carbon dosing.

It'll fall to something, I agree.

But we can't have a perfectly good sump and be expected not to fiddle with it. Sooner or later an adapted hamster wheel and a live hamster will power the next in-sump craze. Of course, some will argue for the higher power returns of squirrels, while others will tout the advantages of kittens. I'll try a lizard, just to be different.

 

[troublesx10]

that is a fantastic idea, but what about 2 squirrels in two diffrent wheels?

Question
with my setup i have a wetdry/skimmer, but want to add reg at some point, but i am confused as to the best set up in the long run for stability, and with the initial spikes in bio chem.

do you think it would be more beneficial to add a refigium when i am going to have a wet dry running iniatially when i start it up and begin cycling, or add it later? what about chaeto algea---add sooner rather than later?

"from above previously stated"

"Without skimming all the organic material realeased by the die off in the rock will completely decay in the tank. On the one hand this will give your biofilter a lot of food. On the other it may expose your rock and substrate to highly elevated phosphate levels some of which will precipitate on the rock and leach back later."

Question:

why would it result in higher elvated phosphate levels

how does the phosphate become stronger/weaker thru the cycling process?

Hobby Experience: tropical, no salt

 

[stricknine]

I set up my new(er) 72 bow with a 30 fuge. I have 2" of sand in the DT for critters, and have a skimmer in the first section of my sump, DSB, lg. LR rubble, and chaeto in the middle, followed by my return pump to the DT. I know its early yet, but I have yet to test any trace nitrate or nitrite in the system in the 4 months it has been running, and I have to admit I have given it an excuse to!

My biggest mistake this far is not having near enough room for equipment. I havent told the wife yet (but she'll probably read this post) that I think the only way to build a stable, reasonable, easy, and expandable reef is to have a large sump (in the basement, it'll save room in the stand for storage!). Accommodates equipment, LR, DSB, chaeto, and is EASY! All water changes, all dosing, ATO, all done in the sump. DT is kept clean and attractive as it should be.

My votes (based on limited experience and a lot of research):
- +1 Large sump/fuge
- +1 chaeto
- +1 DSB (remote)
- +1 for GFO (or UltraLith/zeovit if into SPS)

 

[troublesx10]

that was what i was thinking of, however having a wet dry included in it as well----- only because i already own it,,,, 1 overflow to wet with skimmer, 1 overflow to refig pump connected in middle to return.

 

[Whys]

Phosphates can become stored in the rock, which then leach out over time.

Tho it is always tempting to use equipment one already owns, a wet/dry filter is nearly unanimously discouraged. When members are unanimous about anything in this hobby, one should take notice.

An adapted wet/dry can be a great place to keep Chaeto.

 

[stricknine]

For the phosphates to be stored in the rock, where would they come from? I am assuming the RODI and GFO reactor will take care of the phosphates?

 

[Whys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14809574#post14809574 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by troublesx10
that is a fantastic idea, but what about 2 squirrels in two different wheels?

I like your thinking. If you place them in parallel and set the wheel spins opposite one another, then the two gyrational forces should cancel each other out and reduce vibration. But honestly, I don't think squirrels are worth their drawbacks. You'd be better off just doubling up your hamsters. Then later, if you decide it's too much torque, you can just ditch a hamster or two.

+1 for two wheels.

 

[Whys]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14809652#post14809652 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stricknine
For the phosphates to be stored in the rock, where would they come from? I am assuming the RODI and GFO reactor will take care of the phosphates?

I don't really know much about phosphates. I don't run GFO and haven't had a problem with it. GFO works for people, but it has been said before...

There are few problems in this hobby that can't be solved with regular water changes.

 

[tmz]

Phosphate is in all living things. So it would come from the die off in the rock,food or fishwaste. Or if the rock was exposed to high phosphate levels in the water some would precipitate and stick to it only to leach back later when in water with lower levelslof phosphate. It tends to equilibriate.

Granulated feric oxide is a phosphate binder. It binds phosphate similar to the way in which granualted activated carbon binds organic materials.

Phosphate can accumulate in an aquarium in a brief period of time. It's a question of more in and less out. So strategies to reduce import and maximize export are used such as: less food, rinsing food,. skimming , water changes , macroalgae ,gfo. lanthanum chloride ,etc. Phosphate is dangerous to corals and other calcifying organisms . When in excess(over 0.25ppm) it inhibits their ability to calcify. It also contirubutes greatlly to the growth of nuisance algae.

 

[troublesx10]

"like your thinking. If you place them in parallel and set the wheel spins opposite one another, then the two gyrational forces should cancel each other out and reduce vibration. But honestly, I don't think squirrels are worth their drawbacks. You'd be better off just doubling up your hamsters. Then later, if you decide it's too much torque, you can just ditch a hamster or two."

but what about replacing hamsters with mice? mice are smaller/smarter, and just as active therefor you can have more power in smaller package,,, 2 mice per wheel as per 1 hamster/squirrel per wheel, therefor you would have 4 mice producing power vs 2 hamsters or squirrels

great minds think alike,,,,,, vibration bad------abundence of efficency and power good

QUE: 1
what your saying is that regular water changes should address the issue of phosphate, but it may be expected that there will be some residiual phosphates due to leaching from the rocks.......

as for the wet dry your also saying that everyone agrees with the fact that a wet dry will be fine used or new?????
previously stated--------- "Tho it is always tempting to use equipment one already owns, a wet/dry filter is nearly unanimously discouraged. When members are unanimous about anything in this hobby, one should take notice."

QUE: 2
and that i may be able to modify existing wetdry to add chaeto? how do you go about determining if you can do this or not---- space requirement, flow requirement???

QUE: 3
do you think it would be more beneficial to add a refigium when i put it all together initally with the wet dry, i start it up and begin cycling, or add it later?

QUE:4
do you think is it better to cycle the tank with or without fish? i read in an acticle that one way to do it is with out fish but with a few pieces of human grade edible shrimp in tank jump start cycle process???

 

[woochild86]

I wish I would have known about this web site a year ago when I started, maybe then I wouldn't have had to spend so much money with trail and error. lol