Refugium tips (formerly "flow rate thorugh a refugium")

[killerwhale]

Anthony, I have the luxury of ample space and want to design multiple refugiums. My desire is to set up refugiums for nutrient uptake, DSB,and plankton generator. I want you to know I have read your books and gathered the info but I would like more specifics on setting up multiple refugums. I know you are always careful not to force your ideas on other people(you are wonderful about sharing your info and letting us decide what we want to do with it)But if YOU were seting up a 400 gallon tank and YOU had YOUR choice of 3 rugiums what size and configuration would you choose. For example If you are looking for uptake I know you like Cheto or Grac. but if you set up proper skimmers would there be more benefits derived from a big grass bed. If so how big would it need to be to gain the PROPER benifits( benefits that YOU would deem worth while) or would this even be in your design?If x amount of water is to be supplied to the skimmer is there enough to supply proper flow to other refugiums or do they need raw flow from tank also?So many questions. I hope I havent stepped out of bounds for the forum I know this is long. Truly I know 99.9% of us value your humble but most accurate opinion Thank you so much for all your efforts and willingness to share and help us.I'm truly blown away that this info that has been gathered at your most precious resource(time)would be shared with no strings attached.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

My latest (new) tank has a marsh refugium with intertidal grasses... for aesthetics and the fixing of some nutrients...

my workhorse is my (second) Chaetomorpha refugium: growing fast, being harvested (nutrient export and providing a fab matrix for micrococrustaceans in the process

I may add another Gracilaria (small) refugium to recycle nutrients for herbivorous fishes.

Above all... I do like Chaeto tumbling and vigorous.

kindly,

Anth

 

[killerwhale]

Based on all your lit. I assume you have a skimmer set up first. Are these set up in a series to be gravity fed after the skimmer or does it require being fed by the return pump to provide the proper flow.Maybe I'm assuming it takes alot more flow than what is really needed but you are always encouraging us to have proper flow.I know I have a problem with nuisance algea out competing caulerpa in an eco-system I have set up now.Sorry I don't know how to post previous quotes but you replied to mwood 800 to 1000gallonsto process organics That doesnt seem enough to accomplish flow in the other refugiums or am I just missing it.

 

[killagoby]

I have 152GPH going through my fuge which holds maybe 2 or 3 gallons of water (on a 29 gallon tank) and 18w of PC lighting on it. Will that be enough for my Cheateo if I run the lights 24/7?

 

[outy]

i have a 50 g sump for a 100G softie and sps tank,i put in a devider to help with keeping raw water and water level to my skimmer [thanks Anthony] got the idea here [not done yet with tweaks]. I just put in another divider to keep my mag9.5 in. my sumps in my basement and ive got about 800gph flowing through. i will get chaeto i wonder about sand depth and with that i have some free live sand [in the bag] would it be better to go to a DSB or use the so called bagged live sand.

thanks for your input Anthony i have better nutrient export now

 

[Anthony Calfo]

I don't regard the bag "live" sand as being particularly live.

I'm sure that you will get much more life forms from live sand harvested form the ocean or even another aquarists mature/established tank.

 

[poopsko24]

Anthony, can't wait to get youre new posters, ordered them the other day. I'm trying to come up w/ a good fix for my tank/ refug. I have a 170 custom. I want to make my fuge out of a 29. Already have a seperate sump going. Now the 29 will fit behind my display on the floor. The display is on a 33" stand. I already have both my 1 1/2" drains feeding my euroreef skimmer section and think its best left at that. Now I have a gen X 1090 gph pump for my return. The 29 gal. fuge is already drilled on in the front uppermost part to accept a 1" bulkhead w/ screen to drain back into my sump/return section. What is the best way to feed and deliver it to my fuge ? I think that my only left option would be to tee off my return (which would'nt be so bad) If I'm going to have a 3/4" line for my return off of my 1090 gph return pump should I tee it off to the fuge ? Then the fuge drains back to the return pump section of the sump. My other question is if I tee it off to the fuge then at what point on the fuge should the exit nozzle of the return be at ? Or should I have a spraybar there? or 90 it right across the waters surface or submerged ? thanx alot.

 

[poopsko24]

Oh, I forgot to mention that I want to grow chateo in the fuge and was thinking about a DSB in the fuge ......yes or no on the DSB. Or should I just do the chateo.???

 

[Anthony Calfo]

I agree on the tee of the return pump... this is tidy and usually works very fine.

Add the DSB if you think you need nitrate control. Maybe some more worms or fine zooplankton. Else no worries... keep it simple/empty for the Chaeto ball to tumble.

 

[poopsko24]

ok, that said how should i have my outlet going into the fuge ? Should I have an 90 degree elbow just blowing across the top of the water ? Or should I submerge it ? Or is a spraybar across the top of the water surface better than the single 90 degree elbow ? thanx Anthony

 

[Anthony Calfo]

as per earlier chats in this thread... a splash lip just below the surface.

 

[poopsko24]

I would do a splash lip , but I'm not overflowing into the fuge like that... I'm going to be flowing right into it w/ a 90 degree elbow , do you think i should do a splash lip and just not put a 90 on there and have it just be a the pvc pipe hitting a splash lip instead?

 

[Anthony Calfo]

I do/most always like the splash lip for creating rolling water flow patterns.

 

[cabbagehead]

This forum is great. Can't belive I waited a year to come here
Does this setup look ok? Or should I change the supply side of the sump to include a piece of plexi to direct water flow? Thanks

 

[Anthony Calfo]

if I understand your diagream correctly (shouldn't the arrow on the far right side/section be pointing upwards as the sump return?), then your sump proper is waaaaay too small for safe running here.

Even with a very precise evaporation top-off system... you will be cutting this close. Without auto-evap top off, you will be a slave to evap and likely burn out some pumps!

As for the baffle on the left side from the first (skimmer?) chamber... it really is not needed if your flow is appropriately slow enough through this sump (it cannot be too high for noice and microbubble concerns... leave the bulk of the flow needs/duty up top on a closed loop or in display pumps).

I do think you would be better served with a submerged refugium spillway/lip at least to get the rolling water flow pattern we have talked about in this thread (assuming you'll keep the typical macroalgae species).

Incorporating a refugium into a sump in such downstream applications (as opposed to my preferred upstream - above sump or next to/above display) is one of their greatest limitations.

And... welcome to the forum, my friend Thanks for peeking in

 

[barryhc]

Anthony, I've been researching for a sump/refugium, that I'm designing now to DIY for a couple of months now. I read this entire thread today, very very informative!

My display tank for this is a 27 gal. hex, with 6" of sand and gravel ( 1 1/2" of 1-2mm arag. at the surface ), and lots ( about 35 #'s ) of live rock.

The design as of now, is a 30x18x18 ( 42 gal. ) which is intended to be divided into 3 compartments:

> 15 gal. secondary display

> 10 gal. refugium

> 10 gal. of sump ( several compartments, overflows etc. )

I understand you're not a big fan of "combined sump/refugium" setups, but the whole thing has to sit out in the open, I need ( and want ) the extra display space for compatability issues, plus the 27 is "quite full".

My current set-up uses an overflow to a 16 gal. walmart tub, 450 gph ( "head rated" ) return with anti siphon holes, which only drains 1/2 gal. at power-off.

I understand how to handle the mechanical issues here, but here are the paramaters and questions.

The main tank has about 18 gal. of actual water. The new secondary display will be about 12 gal. actual water, and the refugium portion will be about 8 gal. of actual water.

That means about 30 gal. of display water to 8 gal. of "fuge" water ( or about 25% ). At 450 gph, thats 56 times the "fuge" volume per hour, 25 times the main display volume per hour, and 37 times the secondary display volume per hour.

>All the animals are happy now with the 25 times per hour in the main display, but what about that 56 times in the "fuge"?

I'm looking to grow Chaeto most likely, and hopefully lots of little "feeder critters".

The main display is handling itself pretty well in terms of nitrate already( it is rather heavily stocked ) at less than 2ppm, and Phosphate has finally dropped to less than 1 ppm and is on its
way down. I will probably run several inches of sand-gravel in the secondary display, so it should nearly handle itself in terms of nutrients.

>I can cut down the flow rate pretty easy in the fuge, while I'm still designing if need be. Should I?

What sand, gravel, mud, you name it, is appropriate in the refugium, if I'm looking to grow macro for export, and "critters" to feed?

Are there any caveats here that you see me falling into?

Thanks, barryhc

 

[barryhc]

Anthony, please apply this information to the post directly above.

Quote from Anthony:
my workhorse is my (second) Chaetomorpha refugium: growing fast, being harvested (nutrient export and providing a fab matrix for micrococrustaceans in the process

>>I think this is the same function I'm looking for. Keep in mind, that the fuge is directly behind the secondary display and will not be seperated from light. I will be running an "opposite" lighting schedule, of probably 12 on, 12 off? ( between the primary display, and secondary "display-fuge") Is the 12-12 photoperiod problematic for this type of fuge?

I got the part about flow being good in most cases at a nominal
value of 20 X "fuge" volume. Is there a high border for flow that will affect the "microcrustaceans matrix", and about that matrix?

Thanks for being here, it is a blessing. > barryhc

 

[cidory]

This new 38 gallon sump will sit under my 50, comments welcomed.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

really no such thing as too much flow, for microcrustaceans... or really most any other creatures practically kept.

The calmest reef you will ever see is still staggeringly more dynamic than the most turbulent aquarium. The real issue with "too much flow" is the application (direction... as in too linear/laminar) and not the (high) volume. It is the very focussed linear flow pattern such as with powerheads and pump nozzles that is so very awful and unnatural for many reef creatures if unmodified in aquaria.

So by providing the wide rolling (indeed laminar but diffused) flow as with a tumbing chaeto ball... or the fab turbulence of a multi-tee manifold like some do on displays, we can sufficiently diffuse water flow while still enjoying high volume.

As far as the 12/12 photoperiod... it is a must! One of the biggest mistruths in aquarium algae culture is that all or many species can endure an uninterrupted 24hr photoperiod. Not true! Not even close. Most will suffer and dwindle in time without adequate time (night) for respiration. Among commonly available plant and algae species... only some Caulerpa will live well in stasis with constant illumination.

Really... the majority of marine plants and algae will thrive, if not need(!), a proper and natural day/night photoperiod 12/12 is fine with most lamps. Focus more on finding warm coilored lights of high PAR value.

 

[barryhc]

Thanks Anthony, that sets me up nicely, for flow, mine will be well diffused, with an option to "roll" the flow in that chamber, as well.

I have followed your flow-lip technique, and that is the "option". The standard flow at about 50 "times", when fully "dispersed", is still only 8mm per second, of velocity, which is almost "miniscule".

Could you offer some advice or info. on the substrate to use, with the primary objective being the production of "food critters", and where macro algae will be promoted, but is secondary to ( or even in support of ) the "critter production".

Thanks again, > barryhc