releasing non native fish back in the reef

And we do have net caught fishes. That I can guarantee because I've seen them round up net-catch fishes. Successful reefers here have kept batfishes and idols and tangs for years. I have fishes that are net caught and doing great. Actually, I hate exporters because they ship the net caught fishes OUT of my country so YOU can buy them. I'm actually left with bad fishes, and if I wasn't more decerning, I'd probably end up buying a cyanide caught fish, which is maybe 90% of the fishes available here. Indonesia and the Philippines supply 85% of aquarium fishes WORLDWIDE. SO if I don't see those fishes in my country, it is probably swimming in your tanks, right?

And i'm talking about my fishes. What about corals? Where on earth will you harvest LPS corals at 20 pesos per piece (1$ is 56 pesos, REGARDLESS of the species), so they can sell in the US for $200? If you were an importer/exporter, would you harvest them elsewhere? Will they sell those corals here? Partly. We have about a hundred people in the reef hobby, for the ENTIRE country. So where is the market? Yeah. western countries. They destroy our reefs for the western reef tanks actually.

So you can't BELITTLE my country by saying that you haven't bought fishes here for a gazillion years because you, and most probably your neighbors, have, had, and will always buy here. Believe me, if you're a businessman, you'd say that your fish came from Pluto or Saturn, but NOT from the Philippines or Indonesia. 85% is a HIGH probability that you got it here right? Business is business. Unless you hire a Coast Guard vessel to secretly chase your source.

And if it is true that you have stopped buying here, then Lo and Behold! Maybe those poachers will starve to death. But after Finding Nemo movie, they became richer.

YOU may stop buying here, only in principle. But the suppliers will not stop. And in fairness to them, some of them are legit, MAC certified, and will probably give you the best fishes, but will not tell you they got it here. again, its alive and healthy, the hell if it came here, right?

In closing, I will not defend the entire industry. There is a minority of good collectors, but the reef here is ghastly. Things must and will be done. We basically cannot depend on the government alone. As it is, we have a hard time protecting the forest from illegal loggers. And we have probably ten times more marine area than logging area. Advocacy is one thing. Actual actions is the tough part. One is avoid LFS selling known cyanide caught fishes. We have corals reforestations and protected areas. I'm planning a law that will require student divers to log in or at least plant a few coral frags in the sea, before they can get a diver's "license." There is hope. The corals may die, but in the end, we will have only one thing left. That is HOPE. It is a word, not a fish specie or coral frag.

So don't scold me for the things my countrymen does, because like you, I bash them. Not only that, I STOP them, not only talk about this and that.
 
"The lucrative U.S. market for coral organisms may be the major force driving destructive fishing practices in the Indo-Pacific region." - The blamed becomes the blamer.

"As the worldââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s largest importer of coral reef organisms, the United States has a major responsibility to promote nondestructive, sustainable harvesting practices." -what have you done lately? Than bash me of course.

www.nmfs.noaa.gov/habitat/ead/ReadingRoom/tradecoralreefspecies.pdf

We export 6 million fishes a year. And that was 10 years ago, on a CONSERVATIVE estimate! If I see 1,000 fishes sold locally, where is the 5,999,000? Go figure.
 
He didn't bash you but pointed out a truth that you READILY admitted to. Simply that a lot of filipino fish are cyanide caught and it's destroying the reef in your area hence he avoids filipino fish and claims to be able to tell the difference based on suttle color differences. You've taken it as a personal insult for reasons unknown to me take it easy.
 
I hope everybody CAN tell the difference.

Fact is, you're most probably bashing the fishes on your tanks that were actually collected here. Net caught of course. Yes, I admit that there are cyanide caught, but you should also admit that there are net caught, and actually exported to your country.

I just hope that the traders will admit that the fishes they have came here. Then all of you wont buy from them. Then it will save my fishes.

tokitay said "DUHHHHH?!!" in the middle of a healthy, informative, professional conversation. Isn't that an insult? Even asking me to "Zoom out?" If that is not insulting in your dictionary, well, it is in mine.
 
then you need a new dictionary. it sounds to me that tokitay's post was in response to the op's original question, and had nothing to do with your dissertation on the evils of the wests buying habits or the stupidity of the american people. he posted before you started your "healthy, informative, professional conversation".
i think your getting your panties in a bunch at the wrong people.
 
huh? my first post on this thread was at 11/20/2005 01:32 AM. toki's post came in at 11/20/2005 03:28 AM. look up the thread. he was talking to me, i guess, thinking i was still Mike_Dizon. Who was noble enough to turn his cheek and walk away, while you continue talking against him.

anyone wants to argue my points above? lets hear it.
 
i'm not trying to start an argument but why would you think he's talking to you? are you doing something irresponsible or releasing fish to be mistaken for mike dizon? i hadn't seen anything in your first post that his response would be in reply to.

looks to me your just a little jumpy at any association with mike dizon style of thinking, good for you.
tokitay said:
Wise up man. Zoom out and consider just how bad a choice it is to do something so irresponsible! Besides the many examples in this thread just think of the species dessimation caused by people doing exactly what you are. Duhhh!!!
 
jolt26 said:
huh? my first post on this thread was at 11/20/2005 01:32 AM. toki's post came in at 11/20/2005 03:28 AM. look up the thread. he was talking to me, i guess, thinking i was still Mike_Dizon. Who was noble enough to turn his cheek and walk away, while you continue talking against him.

anyone wants to argue my points above? lets hear it.

this thread was pretty much dead until you resurrected it.
i started it because of one person's activity.it wasn't about net caught vs cyanide caught and really wasn't about the conditions of you're reefs. it wasn't intended to be a "filipino bashing thread" and nobody other than you has made that distinction. i stopped posting on this thread because it seemed that there wasn't much more to say without him defending himself. i have 1 question for you. do you think what mike dizon is doing(or did) ok? since you think he is so noble.
 
"The lucrative U.S. market for coral organisms may be the major force driving destructive fishing practices in the Indo-Pacific region." - The blamed becomes the blamer.

Jolt

I am not sure why we are arguing here. I think both of us agree on general principles.

We(the part of the greedy destructive US reefers) and you(the exploited Philipines citizens) agree that :

1.We as responsible reefkeepers, will try not to purchase fish from the philipines

2. You would rather not have your reefs exploited by overfishing to supply the US market.

Your anger is understandable, but it is directed at wrong people in the wrong thread.

In fact, you can help by giving us all your facts about names of all the LFS in US(starting with the one in NJ) that deal with the filipino fish so that we can all be happy :)
 
Montery Bay Aquarium just released their great white shark back into the wild after keeping it with non native fishes.

"How to introduce non native disease into a population you are trying to save- 101"


smilies-29078.png
 
to much public scrutiny to do otherwise. serving great white filets probably would have made the nemo public froth at the mouth.. :D
 
thanks hozer. that remark is worth replying to because it is well said and with no moronic intention (meaning, nothing of panties in an bunch blahblah).

yes. i hope you stop buying fishes here because of the right reason, and you took the words right off my mouth: reefs exploited by overfishing to supply the US market. because even if you are an importer/exporter that employ net-catching fish in collecting, you are still exploiting the very fragile ecosystem. do not buy here, not because the fishes here are a hundred percent cyanide caught (because it is not), but because the decades of supplying to the US market has left us with almost nothing.

I went diving early this year on a reef somewhere in Luzon. I only saw little damsels. NOTHING more. And the fishes that used to be there is definitely not in my country. it is in yours.

thank you.
 
If innpropriate animals are miskept even by people with "good intentions" they should know and see the results of their actions.

I've seen too many Pacu and nurse sharks given to LFS because of the aquarists bad choice. Many of those fish were not resellable and had to be put down. The aquarist did not know the fish was put down tho i think they should have had to watch it and or know about it so they would not make the same mistake again.

Sure that's "sick" and "demented" but it's also effective. Dont buy/house this fish or it will die unnaturally.

There are too many people out there giving cute baby fish a home until they cannot care for them. Pacu, oscars, sharks, lionfish, etc.

It's a freakin great white. what did the aquarium expect? to tame and ride it like shamu? if it wansnt an endangered species, id say they should have put the fish down. they are setting a terrible example for the hobby and potential hobbiests. How mant people now are going to see and hear about that, buy a shark and try to release it "when they are done"? Sure, not many but enough to potentally be disasterous.

Maybe I just don't understand Aquariums and Zoos.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the I feel the research, new understanding and information gained out weigh the minimal risk involved. I think I read somewhere that sharks have an amazing imune system for one. On the other hand MBA uses sterilized NSW on the way in, and on the way back to the ocean. I do not know for asure but I would think that there were many tests done on a microbial level to help limit the potential of introducing something into the ocean.
 
I agree that sharks are not prone to disease. Thank goodness. I just don't like the example the aquarium has set.

I agree we need to save the sharks in the wild, and yes it's through public interest, but to be suprised when it hunts it's tankmates and grows too large is having no forsight.

I'm no zoologist, not yet at least, but I could have told them a great white shark would not be a good choice for a non-biotope "community" display.

A whale shark isn't a much better choice... I guess we'll see about that at Atlanta Aquarium.
 
Obviously we all agree that our aquarium fish, kept by hobbyists, should not be released into the wild, especially if they are not native to the release location. That being said, some aquarium and zoos are set up with the specific intention of being able to release animals back to the wild, but they are run by people who have extensively studied the process, and have a proven record of protecting the animal as well as its intended release point. I think this part of the thread has gone off topic.
Back to the original topic, and I can't believe that it hasn't been mentioned yet. My first question to my LFS or online dealer is not how or where was this fish caught, but, is this a tank bred fish? Now obviously I could be lied to, but I don't believe it has happened at this point. I want to have my tanks, and my fish, but I aslo want to do what is best for the reef. I believe captive propagation is the most important thing for this hobby to support. Granted it won't be immediate in many cases, and some species may never be captive bred, but it is worth a try.
I know some people that say if you are so for the enviornment, don't have a tank, that I am part of the problem. I guess that argument has some merit, but I also think that by keeping a healthy and beautiful reef tank, I can get people who see it more invested in the idea of preserving the wild reefs. I have said before on this board, Ducks Unlimited is one of the more successful organizations in preserving wetlands for ducks and other birds, and it is highly populated with bird hunters. Yes, Yes, I hear it now, "we want to save them to kill them." The point is, they are preserving the habitats and monitoring populations so that it nevers gets to the point where 95% of it is already seriously damaged.
Ok, sorry, I am done now.
 
I have an idea.

How about from now on, let's STOP buying anything reef-related.
Let's just STOP altogether. Let's just forget that this hobby ever existed and move on to basket weaving or something. Maybe the suppliers and collectors will leave the ocean alone since there will be no demand.

And tell me... what's worse: Releasing a specimen in the wild where it can do whatever the hell it wants, or keeping specimens in tiny glass cubes- with feeding time totally dependent on its owner whether or not he feels like feeding the poor fish. How about eating your own waste? How'd you like to do that to yourself?

Some "Pros" even consider going "skimmerless". Some even brag about not doing water changes for MONTHS! Please. Just release your fish already, you're making it suffer in that tiny glass box.

Am I right or Are you wrong?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8027592#post8027592 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by xtm

And tell me... what's worse: Releasing a specimen in the wild where it can do whatever the hell it wants, or keeping specimens in tiny glass cubes...

Am I right or Are you wrong?

You're absolutely wrong. It's NEVER a good idea to release captive fish into natural bodies of water. Do a little research and educate yourself before you post again. I don't think we want to repeat this almost year-old thread again.
 
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