Replacing skimmer with chaeto?

[FoxFace Fish]

^^^ lmao

it works since you believed everything. lol.

And so we open another can of worms :lmao::lmao::lmao:

 

[Scurvy Dawg]

I think the videos/experiments that BRS does are useful; just take them with a grain of salt because they fail scientific rigor on most fronts. No better no worse than an experiment you or I might run.

I think that is the point with the BRS videos. They do low level experiments that most of us don't have the time or resources to devote to. I don't think they have ever claimed that they were conducting high level scientific experiments. Most of them are geared to your average everyday reefer.

Sure BRS is in the sales business, but I have never felt that their videos are there to solely sell a product.

 

[ktownhero]

^^^ lmao

it works since you believed everything. lol.

So you're claiming that the results are faked? Are your initials DJT? lol.

Provide evidence, then there's something to talk about. But if all you want to do are make baseless claims, then you're not doing anyone a favor. There is absolutely nothing about their experiment that sounds fishy. I'm beginning to wonder if you ever even watched it...

In my own anecdotal experience, I've found that a $12 plant bulb from Amazon does exactly the same thing as they claimed; grows fluffier chaeto and grows it faster than a standard bulb. It's a significant difference.

 

[reefgeezer]

^^ yep..
Forget skimmers.. forget algae reactors...
Just add more corals..
Let them suck it up..

Yea but... you need the skimmer/algae do-hic-ey until at some point you don't. Remove 'em at your own risk or just let 'em run and feed/stock more heavily (my preference). And for those other than Mcgyvr, it's as much the organisms that populate the nooks and crannies or the substrate of mature systems as it is corals, and some corals uptake more organics than others. Your mileage may vary.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

BRS is becoming a true leader in our hobby and I think it upsets some who wish it to not be a big retail store doing so.

Why is everything so black and white? Who said "sales pitch" is negative?

Is it possible that I might think that BRS are a business and producing (potentially valuable) informational videos as part of their marketing/sales program?

"Sales pitch" doesn't automatically mean something is wrong, or even bad. There are clearly lots of examples of companies (including BRS) using good, truthful information to push products. There are also examples (again, including BRS) of companies using information that is either plain wrong, or misleading at best. In the end though, they're clearly a for-profit business doing this in order to support their business, either directly or indirectly. And yes, that should cause us to pause and consider their business role in what they're presenting. In other words, I agree with what you said in your last post: we should bring any other evidence together when evaluating this (or any) video.

I used to have an entire favorites folder of actual peer reviewed research on light spectrum, intensity, duration, etc and effects on growing marine algae. That was like 10 or 15 years and at least 3 laptops/browsers ago though. I know it's all probably still out there but honestly I can't be bothered to find it. My chaeto grows fine under a $12 plant grow light from amazon. Why on earth anyone would even consider spending 10x that (or more) on a light to grow algae blows my mind, but then again, my mind would be blown on a regular basis at what people spend in this hobby if I really sat down and thought about it.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

To get back on topic. I find it hard to consider chaeto a "replacement" for a skimmer. That's like asking if you can replace an aircraft carrier with a battleship. Yes, they both float, and if your only concern was that you had to pick one OR the other to cross the ocean you'd get there either way, but they're clearly very different.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Excessive dissolved organics are a potential problem in and of themselves in some systems. These systems are usually newer ones lacking a dense population of mature corals, sponges, and other organisms that consume dissolved organics. For example, IME, cyanobacteria and possibly dino's are often associated with elevated dissolved organic levels. These organisms can use the N & P bound in the organics and get out of hand quickly when the conditions are right... even when N&P testing shows low or even nonexistent levels.

I believe both a skimmer to limit the dissolved organic levels and some inorganic N & P binding using (turf or macro) algae are desirable. If forced to use only one I'd choose a quality skimmer unless the system was very mature.

I'd agree with that. I've run systems from scratch with only algae/turf for nutrient export, and I've switched systems over once they were mature. The end result is pretty different. Even for a measure as basic as water clarity - the system with the skimmer (and lower DO, and likely lower free bacteria in the water column, etc) has much clearer water. It's hard to notice if you're used to a tank, but I've found that adding carbon or a skimmer to a tank that's had nothing but macro or turf for nutrient export can burn corals thanks to the sudden increase in light intensity as the water clears up.

 

[ca1ore]

Oh no, you can't just walk away from these crazy claims. Those BRS videos are extraordinarily useful and to claim they are a "sales" pitch in disguise is disingenuous at best.

Of course it's a sales pitch - or at least a way to establish BRS as an 'expert', further the brand and sell more stuff (thus, sales pitch). Come on, surely people aren't that naive. And by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Credibility sells! I just think it's important for folks to understand that these are not scientific studies supported by rigorous testing protocol.

Just answer one question: does BRS to comparison videos on stuff they don't sell? If they don't, then the argument for objectivity takes a hit.

 

[rtparty]

Of course it's a sales pitch - or at least a way to establish BRS as an 'expert', further the brand and sell more stuff (thus, sales pitch). Come on, surely people aren't that naive. And by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Credibility sells! I just think it's important for folks to understand that these are not scientific studies supported by rigorous testing protocol.

Just answer one question: does BRS to comparison videos on stuff they don't sell? If they don't, then the argument for objectivity takes a hit.

They did just do the black box LED review because the community as a whole was asking for it. They don't sell them and doesn't like they plan to.

That's where I'll leave that topic and any other BRS related talk.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

They did just do the black box LED review because the community as a whole was asking for it. They don't sell them and doesn't like they plan to.

No, they don't sell the black boxes, but the entire jist of the video is "yes, you can grow coral with a black box, but if you think it's as good as a $800 name brand light in terms of features or quality, you're sorely mistaken." That's almost word for word from the video, which - yes - I have watched.

Whaddya know, they happen to sell several models of these superior "$800 name brand lights."

Again, there's certainly nothing incorrect or flat our wrong about their video, but it is pretty clearly part of a sales program for a profitable business.

 

[Hitch08]

Well, I'll tell you guys my experience with cheato, the BRS video, etc.

I've been having problems with cyano. My wife had some health problems and the tank took a back seat. I wasn't changing water like I needed to. Once I had time to spend on the tank, I did a lot of water changes. The cyano persisted. My nitrates were above 2.0. I am trying to get an ATS, but it's been slow.

I watched the BRS video and decided to try the Kessil H380 Halo II. Well, it certainly grows much more than the $20 bulb from Lowes. No question about it. However, my issue is that it's growing hair algae like crazy. The cheato isn't doing much. Well, hair algae is growing on the cheato. This weekend, I'll pull out the cheato and try to get an idea if it has grown much. I did take some pictures before I started with the Kessil.

My fuge is not large. It's part of my 40g breeder sump. As a result, the light from the Kessil hits the middle section where the return pump is located - which now has a fair amount of hair algae growing on it. There is also hair algae growing on the sides of the sump. I need to get in there and do some clean up.

 

[ca1ore]

I bought the H380, though prior to the BRS video ..... that I didn't watch (I don't watch any of them because ultimately I don't personally find them credible). The H380 does grow chaeto like the weed that it is, though I imagine it will grow GHA equally well.

 

[ca1ore]

They did just do the black box LED review because the community as a whole was asking for it. They don't sell them and doesn't like they plan to.

That's where I'll leave that topic and any other BRS related talk.

Did they; well I guess that's encouraging. I wouldn't know because I don't ever watch any of them (though I do spend considerable $$ with them). If you find the videos credible, that's fine; equally fine that I do not.

I do agree though that it's a topic fully beaten to death.

 

[rtparty]

Well, I'll tell you guys my experience with cheato, the BRS video, etc.

I've been having problems with cyano. My wife had some health problems and the tank took a back seat. I wasn't changing water like I needed to. Once I had time to spend on the tank, I did a lot of water changes. The cyano persisted. My nitrates were above 2.0. I am trying to get an ATS, but it's been slow.

I watched the BRS video and decided to try the Kessil H380 Halo II. Well, it certainly grows much more than the $20 bulb from Lowes. No question about it. However, my issue is that it's growing hair algae like crazy. The cheato isn't doing much. Well, hair algae is growing on the cheato. This weekend, I'll pull out the cheato and try to get an idea if it has grown much. I did take some pictures before I started with the Kessil.

My fuge is not large. It's part of my 40g breeder sump. As a result, the light from the Kessil hits the middle section where the return pump is located - which now has a fair amount of hair algae growing on it. There is also hair algae growing on the sides of the sump. I need to get in there and do some clean up.

They go over this exact scenario in multiple videos and they even ran into the same problem at the very beginning. They tore that tank down and started over. The second time around they made sure to remove the hair algae and eventually the chaeto out competed the hair algae.

When I was running chaeto in my sump I used a grow bulb from Amazon. My chaeto grew like crazy for the first two harvests. Then hair algae started creeping in and other stuff was growing in my sump, just like yours. Eventually my chaeto stopped growing (probably due to a lack of nutrients) and my sump was dirty. So I pulled the chaeto, threw it away and cleaned up the sump. Now my sump gets no light and looks much better.

I knew the hair algae was a chance if I pulled my skimmer for a big ball of chaeto and it's one of the main reasons why I won't be going that route.

 

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Well, I'll tell you guys my experience with cheato, the BRS video, etc.

I've been having problems with cyano. My wife had some health problems and the tank took a back seat. I wasn't changing water like I needed to. Once I had time to spend on the tank, I did a lot of water changes. The cyano persisted. My nitrates were above 2.0. I am trying to get an ATS, but it's been slow.

I watched the BRS video and decided to try the Kessil H380 Halo II. Well, it certainly grows much more than the $20 bulb from Lowes. No question about it. However, my issue is that it's growing hair algae like crazy. The cheato isn't doing much. Well, hair algae is growing on the cheato. This weekend, I'll pull out the cheato and try to get an idea if it has grown much. I did take some pictures before I started with the Kessil.

My fuge is not large. It's part of my 40g breeder sump. As a result, the light from the Kessil hits the middle section where the return pump is located - which now has a fair amount of hair algae growing on it. There is also hair algae growing on the sides of the sump. I need to get in there and do some clean up.

Harvest the hair algae. If the chaeto eventually takes off, great. If not, no problem. Your ultimate goal is to bind nutrients, it doesn't matter what species is doing that. When different varieties of algae are present in a given environment, the one that wins is by definition the one you want. Sometimes you have to do a mass harvest or a big reset, but in general, competition will naturally select in your favor.

 

[NS Mike D]

skimmer v cheato

fwiw, this post is from the sponge thread posted by TimFish

"Yes, corals are grabbing whatever they can, both organic and inorganic and we need to think in terms of total notrogen, organic and inorgainc, and total phosphate, organic and inorganic. Not just nitrate and PO4. What we are learning is the microbial life is far more complex than we though even just a few years ago. A good place to start to learn more about the microbial roles with corals is Forest Rohwer's book "Coral reefs in the Microbial Seas". "


the test kits aren't sufficient to tell us the total nitrogen and phosphates in our tanks, nor do we know enough to make conclusions about what is the right level. We can, however, use them to give us a general idea about the N&P in our tanks to validate what our eyes are telling us (coral health and algae/cyano growth)


so let's go back to the beginning. Skimmers and cheato take out different things. And while we tend to think they will result in the same end game, removing N&P, it's not that simple.

Skimmers however are not as selective as we'd like and we end up dosing some of the stuff they pull out.

Cheato on the other hand will add back the organics the corals desire.


Recognizing I don't know enough, I am comfortable for now concluding that my chaeto is complimenting my skimmer so it's not an either or situation, and that in the long run, I would love to see the tank mature in a way that I rely less on the skimmer and eventually not need it.

 

[HippieSmell]

It is true that most function poorly because they are not maintained well, but if you think that BRS kept those tanks pristine as a hobby and not as a job, or that you can do the same for years and years, then you might be really surprised. Again, none of this is impossible, but I cannot stress enough that it is real work. Most think that it is awesome for a few months while their small ball ramps up and everything is clean, tells everybody on the internet how easy it is and then never follow up when real life sets in a few months later and it all stops or they got a part-time job as an aquatic gardener.

I think that you can totally do this, just be realistic about the time commitment and step up your water changes because organic export is still important for reasons other than N and P.

I've kept chaeto for a decade. For a while I had a Rubbermaid sump full of it; easily 40 gallons worth. I don't know what your routine is, but maintaining chaeto is the easiest thing I do. It's a lot easier than cleaning my skimmer.

 

[ktownhero]

No, they don't sell the black boxes, but the entire jist of the video is "yes, you can grow coral with a black box, but if you think it's as good as a $800 name brand light in terms of features or quality, you're sorely mistaken." That's almost word for word from the video, which - yes - I have watched.

Whaddya know, they happen to sell several models of these superior "$800 name brand lights."

Again, there's certainly nothing incorrect or flat our wrong about their video, but it is pretty clearly part of a sales program for a profitable business.

I don't know what your point in all of this is. A prior post you tried to claim that you weren't being negative, but in this post it's clear you are. You keep trying to walk back from your implication that these videos are misleading or dishonest... And don't say you weren't, because there's no point in saying any of the things you've said except to imply such.

But none of it makes sense because of course the business that's entire existence was based upon hobbyists selling products that they like sell the best lights available... Lol.

Even so, there was nothing about that video that pushed anyone in either direction. They showed the tradeoffs between 2 lights with a $700 price difference.

Uh, you guys are tiring.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[ktownhero]

Of course it's a sales pitch - or at least a way to establish BRS as an 'expert', further the brand and sell more stuff (thus, sales pitch). Come on, surely people aren't that naive. And by the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Credibility sells! I just think it's important for folks to understand that these are not scientific studies supported by rigorous testing protocol.

Just answer one question: does BRS to comparison videos on stuff they don't sell? If they don't, then the argument for objectivity takes a hit.

A sales pitch is not establishing yourself as an expert to hopefully sell more stuff. A sales pitch is specifically pitching a product to attempt to increase its sales. Demonstrating that a $100 light does rather well against an $800 Radion and that a $20 plant bulb produces nearly identical results to a $300 Kessil Fuge light is not a "sales pitch".

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[reefgeezer]

I can't say I've watched a lot of BRS videos, but I do buy stuff from them... too much stuff! Sales people have used things like the BRS videos forever. Why shouldn't BRS? The few minutes of video I have watched didn't seem to give bad or false information. That's kinda uncommon in the aquarium hobby sector. Buyer beware.