Requirements for zoa/paly?

[tmz]

I know that Eric is a trysted authority. Yesterday night I took a look at the book and saw about the urchin eggs and so on. Thanks!

No, I'm sorry, but Zoanthus spp., Palythoa spp. and Protopalythoa spp. are found all the time in clean nutrient water or nutrient rich water. I've seen them all over the place. It really doesn't matter. I don't know who told you that, or where did you read about it, but that's not true at all.
Sorry, just exposing my own experiences here.

Another thing is that if Palythoa would need a "nutrient rich environment" to thrive it wouldn't do so good in SPS tanks, I guess. By that I mean in tanks with high filtration including GAC and strong skimmer with regular partial water changes.

I've seen Zoanthus spp. in really "dirty waters", close to river mouths!!!
Palythoas are found in strong currents, close to wave action, crystal clean waters...

Grandis.

I don't know what you saw or think you saw or how you discerned which was a zoanthus and which was a protopalythoa or palythoa . It seems unfair that you haven't cited anything to back up your notions other than some unspecified observation extrapolated much too broadly,imo. Many of the citations below contradict the assumptions you presented throughout the thread, unfortunately . Nonetheless, in the interst of information sharing for those interested:

Ronald Shimek, Phd in his work "Marine Invertebrates Invertebrates" discusses a few palythoa ,protopaythoa and zoanthus with distinctions about their light requirements and feeding .

Sprung and Delbeek in "The Reef Aquarium Vol 1" also discuss several species :

" Palythoa.... when given sufficient light no feeding is required but they will capture stray food items fed to fish( as mine do), occasional direct feeding is not harmful and will in fact promote growth.

"protopalythoa ..will actively feed on small pieces of shrimp , flake food... The species with long tentacles are especially good at prey capture.....are often confused with with zoanthus spp..."....will survive in lower light areas...

Protopalythoa grandis:"...Natural habitat: Deep water reefs ..in some localities at about 100 feet or more... Feed often with flake food , chopped fish or chopped clam meat.

Zoanthus spp. " Habitat: interidal zone ..on rocky shores..often exposed at low tide..shallow backreef ,lagoon or sea grass areas..."

Bonneman, Aquarium Corals,:

Palythoa, "....outer reef slopes(50 to 60ft). found shore ward of the reef crest in diverse habitats...light tolerant but grow rapidly with bright light . however, these zoanthids will bleach....."

Zoanthus:

"pacificus...usually found in areas of high water movement ...."

"sociatus ..often found on flats exposed to high light intensity.."

"coppingeri forms large colonies on montipora digitata . Light and current loving.."

"Zoanthus colonies are highly dependent on their zooxanathelae - rather than active feeding and should always be placed in the aqaurium where they will receive bright lighting.

You:

No, I'm sorry, but Zoanthus spp., Palythoa spp. and Protopalythoa spp. are found all the time in clean nutrient water or nutrient rich water. I've seen them all over the place. It really doesn't matter. I don't know who told you that, or where did you read about it, but that's not true at all.
Sorry, just exposing my own experiences here.

They are different and live indiffenent places and have different feeding and lighting needs. Palys and protopalys feed readily. Zoanthus not much. Zoanthidae are also invasive to each other with some more dominant than others.



I don't echo what perople tell me as a general rule and don't offer infrormtion andopinion without some experience with the subject. I keep hundreds of zoanthus and protopaythoa colonies and mini colonies and some protopalythoa and have for years. They do well on exrtras form the fish and an ocassional puff of mixed meaty foods and cyclopeeze . Bacteria and sponges are proliferous in my sytem thanks in part to carbon dosing. The acetate from the vodka and vinegar may be beneficial too.Some spirtulina from timeto time is good for most everything,ime.

I'm also careful to keep them apart as some will overtake others if I don't. i pay attention to where I place them based on my best estimate of their origin. Some do better in less light; some more, same with current.

Another thing is that if Palythoa would need a "nutrient rich environment" to thrive it wouldn't do so good in SPS tanks, I guess. By that I mean in tanks with high filtration including GAC and strong skimmer with regular partial water changes.

Turbid water is not necessarily high in NO3 or Po4 ,although deeper water has higher levels than the upper reef reef. Turbid water likely has more organic carbon ,zooplankton and algae around. Mine do fine in low nutrient water along with booming sps colonies. They eat some and up the ante on photosynthesis as they get plenty of light . I also keep some of the more hardy protopalythoa in a tank with higher nutrients along with leathers. They do well there; zoanthus don't.

Feeding is a fine thing to do but overdoing it at the expense of clean water is not.

 

[A. Grandis]

I kinda agree with your general idea about feeding and you can see that in all my past posts about feeding. They don't really need target feeding when you provide a good light source and good params etc.. What I've found out, again, is that if you offer the right type and the right size particle food to Zoanthus, Palythoa and Protopalythoa spp. they will grab, ingest and digest. Simple as that! They grow better when fed in my closed systems. Well, that what I see. Cant' help, sorry.

In regards to all the references you've posted, I do appreciate and have all of them. I respect all the mentioned authors and know they are serious about their publications. Again, I know the differences about Palythoa, Protopalythoa and Zoanthus spp. as we all do and talk about in this forum. I still have to say that I've seen them all over the place and in all types of environment, not too deep. I can guarantee they occur all in shallow waters! All 3 of them.

Palythoas in shallow water? They can be found exposed!! Zoanthus? yes!! Protopalythoas? Yes, they too, exposed!!! All the kids here can see them in tide pools!!
I'm sorry, but I prefer to believe in what I've seen than in anything written.

Too bad I'm not a scientist nor a famous author to say with such authority. :thumbsup:

I see this forum as a good channel to publish our experiences and that's what I'm doing here, with all respect.
I've been learning from others and I try to help too.
I have no intention in changing opinions nor to bring anything up to try convince others here. I know that you all understand that. Thanks!
My $.02.

Grandis.

 

[tmz]

You are a gentleman and your posts have value and are helpful.

Yes, some palythoa may live in shallow water ;some zoanthus may live on rocky shores ;some near estuarial run off. However, many don't and there are differences among the species. The proper taxonomic reference for any of them is difficult and unclear in any case. Topping that off is a lack of knowledge about the original location of most of the specimens acquired in the hobby. Thus ,in my opinion, though I place high value on precise observations , I'm always dubious abut extrapolations beyond the specific observation.

I agree with most of what you have posted but have seen differences in responses to light, flow, nutrient levels , feeding by genera and species . I,'ve also seen some wipe out their neighbors.

In any case thank you for the discussion.

What do you use for dips btw?

 

[A. Grandis]

I see the same general differences you mentioned, yes, in responses to light, flow, nutrient levels , feeding by genera, but not much by species.
Adding to that, I see differences in responses to salinity, temperature and even substrates where many zoas come from and try to offer similar environment to the ones I've collected.

It would be good to remember that I don't have access to the exactly same species that you guys can have on the mainland. I have only local Hawaiian zoanthids and therefore there might be a difference in regards to many other factors like temperature, feeding responses and nutrient rates in waters that other zoanthids are collected somewhere else. Keeping that in mind is how I come here and try not to impose a rule of tomb in zoanthid's keeping, but at the same time not accepting some of the "literature rule of tombs" as a general rule for all. Maybe some of the usual advices we see online are really for the zoas kept on the mainland, and I believe it could happen. That said it could be that the Hawaiian zoas respond a little different than the more tropical ones from other places when we place them in closed systems...

I still truly believe that most zoas can be kept in a dominated SPS system without any problems regardless of nutrients rates and other factors through careful adaptation, because many have them in such systems.

I agree with you also in being "dubious about extrapolations beyond the scientific observations" and that's what I search along with my observations. I don't blame you not to trust 100% my own observations. I would probably do the same. I'm ok with your reaction, that's fine to me!

I've been using iodine tincture when bacterial or fungal infections occur for many years and just got Lugo's solution a while ago. They all work great for their purposes and that's why I recommend them.
People say Coral Rx is very good too, but I didn't try yet.

Thanks for the kind words!
I understand your point of view and appreciate your conduct and points in the discussion as well! :thumbsup:

Perhaps others could come here and expose their thoughts in zoa keeping.
This thread is filling up with info and healthy zoa discussion, I hope...

:bounce1::bounce2::bounce3:

Grandis.

 

[tmz]

I agree, they can be kept with sps. I keep a wide variety( Atalantic and Pacific) in the sps dominant system. Sometimes moving one up or down or from sandy substrate to bare bottom,to a partially shaded area or even to a frag rack makes a difference. Separating them from other colonies that may be capable of overwhelming them helps too.
BTW, you are probably about as far away from me as one can be and still be in the Unitied States. West Seneca is in Buffalo. Friend of mine retired to Hawaii, one of the smaller Islands. I have to visit him someday. I doubt I'd miss the snow.

I've seen them come in with sponges attached to the rocks they are on and have seen them wilt when the shipping stressed sponges die. Always thought it was toxins but maybe it's the loss of a feeder source has something to do with it.

Thanks for the dip info. For new specimens,
I've tired lugols freshwater dips and Revive. I like the later. Might use lugols for bacterial infections after trying peroxide.
FWIW,lately, I've been using hydrogen peroxide ,standard 3% solution diluted with 4 parts tank water for 4 minute dips for new specimens with nice results and no harm. It's really good at killing algae on new specimens. I'm confident that as an oxidant it's unkind to pathogens and the polyps don't seem troubled by it at all. The algae takes a few days to die but disappears, particularly red turf . Pests drop off nicely,too.

Folks in the local club including some serious zoanthidae affectionados say my "zoos" are on sterioids. I think they could improve so I hope to pick up some tips here.

FWIW, I attribute much of their health and longevity to good water quality, placement,pest control and a lack of predatory fish and shrimp and perhaps, an extra boosts from the extra bacteria associated with organic carbon dosing( vodka and vinegar).
Many reef tanks are low on bacterial populations. The bacteria feed the food chain from the bottom up and seem to encourge sponge growth in particular . Zoanthids and other corals do better in my system since I started using vodka and vinegar 3.5 years ago and nitrates are lower( .2ppm) with PO4 ( <.04ppm).
The facultative heterotrophic denitrifying bacteria enocuraged by organic carbon dosing( vodka and vinegar in my case) have a primary role in my system for nitrate reduction and maintenance. They grab up inorganic nitrogen(NO3) and reduce even more when the switch to anaerobic respiration by reducing it to N which then becomes N2 nitrogen gas. They also help control inorganic phosphate as they take it up for phospholipids. The bacteria put the inorganic nutrient back in the food chain as organics, as their bodies or byproducts which are bio avaliable and removable by skimming and gac .

 

[A. Grandis]

That's great! Local clubs are really good!!! You guys can exchange info, zoas and corals...

The Hawaiian zoas that come with sponges attached to the colony are associated with them most of the time covering the space between the polyps all over. Very hard to collect them without damaging. I find them with many different sponges and if you remove the sponges from the zoas, the zoas don't show it's full beauty after a while. It will need to get over the stress of missing the sponge. Sometimes that happens with algae too. There must be a chemistry relationship between them. Some of the sponges are not so sensitive to air exposure, but to temperature change and depleted/ lack of oxygen in closed bags for long periods of time. Some sponges are very toxic and to the point of stinging our hand when we try to clean the front glass. I believe most sponges won't be ok with fresh mixed synthetic salt water either.

I never tried to dose vinegar nor vodka yet. I do believe that bacteria would feed the zoas constantly and the carbon available with that would be helpful for the system.

When I have new polyps I use about 8 to 10 oz of either tank water or fresh water (I don't really see any difference between them except using tank water for the hard to find/sensitive zoas) and about 3 to 4 drops of iodine tincture or Lugo's solution for about 3 to 5 minutes. Works great and as I've said before, 100% success. So I don't change nor try anything else. Yes, I know the hydrogen peroxide is good for algae. Thanks!

Could you please let me know what are the dosage measurements for your vodka and/or vinegar (ml of vinegar or vodka/ tank gallonage/ times a week)? I'll search/study more about that and find out if I'll be able to incorporate to the maintenance as a test in the future.
Also, what denitrification media do you offer to the denitrifying bacteria? Sand bed?
Any literature on the topic wold be greatly appreciated! Thanks very much! I've heard lots about vodka in the past but never got into it because never really needed, I guess. My nitrates and phosphates are always undetectable. I'm doing water changes with synthetic salt for at least the past 2 years, twice a month and have skimmer 24/7 running. I use carbon when there are too much organics because I feed the fish a variety of foods 3 times a week, and the zoanthids too, once a week.

Thanks a bunch for the info about the bacteria/zoa relationship in your system!
Cheers!

Grandis.

 

[tmz]

I dose vodka and vinegar daily as the bacteria need it with that frequency,ime. 26 ml of vodka nad 64 mil of vinegar. Standadr 5% acetic acid (vinegar) is 8x more dilute than vodka(80 proof = 40% ethanol) so the 64 ml is like another 8ml of vodka in terms of organic carbon content.. That's for 600 gallons of water volume.

I use cryptic refugia with live lock a remote deep sand bed with live rock and live rock and shllow sand beds in the tanks. The bacteria are facultative( they live in the presence of oxygen and turn to nitrate when it's exhausted). They create anaerobic zones in very shallow areas even the mulm itself so depth is not an issue as long as ther is plenty of surface area. Some break loose into the water column regularly. They take nitrate for food and also for respiration when the free O2 is exhausted. Very good at managing nitrates in a heavily fed system.ime. PO4 too lessening the need for gfo. I feed the 40 fish in my stem alot.(over 2 ozs of frozen foods per day in two feedings prday and some flake, krill and nori as well)

This thread on organic carbon dosing may be of interest if you are considering it:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105&highlight=organic+carbon+dosing

I've not tried tincture of iodine; just lugols which has more idoine but no alcohol( ethanol). Do you think the ethanol makes a difference. Any difference noted between using tincture and lugols.? Thanks for the protocol.
I'll try it.

 

[A. Grandis]

Thanks very much for the vinegar and vodka specific quantities and link!
I'll take a look... My system is very stable now and I probably wouldn't change anything in a while, but it is always good to learn something. If vodka and vinegar additions are wonderful to maintain zoas we should at least consider that. I'm sure others would be glad to share their experiences with vodka and vinegar here too. Hope that happens...

Please let me know about the color of your zoas. Are they better after you started to use vodka and vinegar?
Have you used only vodka or only vinegar before?
What calcium additions do you offer to the system? Calcium reactor with CO2?

I don't think there is much difference between Lugol's and tincture in regards to the purpose of dipping zoas for bacterial or fungal treatments. I think they both work very well. I just used the tincture because the Lugol's solution was out of stock long time ago... Yes, there is alcohol in the tincture. I would suggest Lugol's as a general treatment.

Grandis.

 

[tmz]

The colors are good . It's been 3.5 years since I started vodka and vinegar. I can't say the color is better than before. They just appear healthier , fuller and more vibrant. Can't say it's all the vodka and vinegar or the low PO4, NO3 or ???but it's reasonable to attibute some of it to the enhanced bacterial activity and there has been no harm . Don't know if I would start it just for the potential food benefit though.. I use it for nitrate and inorganic phosphate control primarily and to enable higher feeding levels for my fish and corals. Dosing enables more feeding to the tanks without nutrient issues than otherwise.

I rely on limewater( calcium hydroxide , aka kalk) from a still reservoir for calcium and alkalinity for the enitire system which is packed with growing sps with small tweaks with caclium chloride and baked baking soda about once per week as needed.

Early on, I tried vodka only, vodka and sugar, even ascorbic acid ,vitamin C. Settle on a mix of ethanol( vodka) and acetic acid (vinegar) . Studies link coral mortality in some cases to excess glucose( a monomer). Neither vodka nor vinegar go to monomers, just to acetate which is useful to living things.The sugars and carbohydrates like biopellets do at some point in degradation provide monomers. Many cite coral recession and browning when using them. I had trouble when sugar even in very small amounts with fleshy lps and anemones in particular.

 

[KafudaFish]

Interesting discussion and much to ponder.

As said things are good today but what happens tomorrow? Keep doing the same thing or look at another method?

 

[A. Grandis]

The colors are good . It's been 3.5 years since I started vodka and vinegar. I can't say the color is better than before. They just appear healthier , fuller and more vibrant. Can't say it's all the vodka and vinegar or the low PO4, NO3 or ???but it's reasonable to attibute some of it to the enhanced bacterial activity and there has been no harm . Don't know if I would start it just for the potential food benefit though.. I use it for nitrate and inorganic phosphate control primarily and to enable higher feeding levels for my fish and corals. Dosing enables more feeding to the tanks without nutrient issues than otherwise.

I rely on limewater( calcium hydroxide , aka kalk) from a still reservoir for calcium and alkalinity for the enitire system which is packed with growing sps with small tweaks with caclium chloride and baked baking soda about once per week as needed.

Early on, I tried vodka only, vodka and sugar, even ascorbic acid ,vitamin C. Settle on a mix of ethanol( vodka) and acetic acid (vinegar) . Studies link coral mortality in some cases to excess glucose( a monomer). Neither vodka nor vinegar go to monomers, just to acetate which is useful to living things.The sugars and carbohydrates like biopellets do at some point in degradation provide monomers. Many cite coral recession and browning when using them. I had trouble when sugar even in very small amounts with fleshy lps and anemones in particular.

Well, like I've said before, I have no problems with phosphates nor nitrates and my system is very stable now. The fishes are doing very good for years and the zoas growing ok, so...
I'll read about it just to learn more, but yes, the main purpose of vodka is nutrients since it came up long ago, as far as I remember...

In my case I think the target feeding was the best I've done to get better color and healthier stronger colonies along with many things like the right water flow and strong lights (ATI PM). Some times zoas can get weak, still looking ok, and if they get any infection they melt fast. I've had such problems in the past when I didn't target feed them, even with very good lights and good maintenance. They don't require lots of target feeding and when the right food is offered in the right quantities there are noticeable improvements.

I think in your case there is a byproduct from keeping nutrients low. It could be the bacteria you've mentioned, but could be also the "excess" food introduced in the system driving the nutrient pool with bacterial feeding and available absorption from the polyps as a whole. Still and "accidental" secondary result, and good way to keep the zoas happy! :dance: I thank you very much for sharing all your info here!! Very nice to get that vision from other ways.

I see feeding as the priority for the organisms but at the same time there is a tremendous need of balance in respect to the addition and exporting nutrients from any closed system. I would attribute that mainly to the types of food and their qualities, besides a good skimmer and regular partial water changes as a basic foundation for that subject. All the other parameters need to be according to the balance and with a stable optimal constancy IME. I believe you should have to keep that way too when vodka and vinegar are part of the maintenance as well, correct?

So you have a calk reactor, right? I do have a calk reactor with minimum dosage just to keep Alk and Ca++ for corallines. I don't keep any hard corals.
Is your reactor homemade? My reactor is the Aquamedic 1000.

I agree with the glucose problems. Some of the additives contain glucose and looks like the first reactions of the polyps are positive just to show us that in the long run they are getting to decline in numbers!! Those products are often normally sold as organic additives.
I would say beware of some additives with glucose to all zoa and coral keepers!!

If you could let us know the studies about glucose would be great!

Thanks very much for all the info and healthy discussion!!

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

Interesting discussion and much to ponder.

As said things are good today but what happens tomorrow? Keep doing the same thing or look at another method?

Indeed! Very nice observations and great info!!!

I would think that if things are great for a while means that the system is in balance and it doesn't matter much what type of approach is working as long as it's keeping the system balanced and trouble free with good healthy organisms. Specially if the maintenance schedule is not that hard on us.

If there is room for improvement, that should be welcome.

Grandis.

 

[tmz]

No. I don't use my calcium reactor anymore . I haven't for the last 3 or 4 years. I use a still reservoir of lime water( aka kalk/calcium hydroxide) with a tweak of baked baking soda(1 tablespoon, once a week or so for a bit of extra alkalinity and a tsp of calcium chloride to keep the calcium carbonate balance. A brute garbage can is filled with ro water and calcium hydroxide is added at two tsps per gallon then stirred in. The can is covered and after two hours for settling the perstaltic dosing pump is turned on to begin dosing clear fully saturated limewater/kalkwasser. The litermeter 3 pump I use has a built in flow rate controller and timer. I set the amount to be dosed over a 24 hour period to match estimated evaporation rates( 18 liters in my case for the 600 gallon system). The built in timer turns the pump on and off to dose 150 equal installments( one every 9.5 minutes ) over the 24 hour period. The intake tube for the pump is set a few inches off the bottom of the reservoir to ensure no slurry is picked up and only clear fully sturated limewater is dosed. Spreading it out is important as dosing too much at one time will spike ph and lead to precipitation of calcium carbonate. Spreading it out is also better for very stable sg/salinity throughout the day .

I like to have naturally ocurring foods in the water and I like to feed my fish. Nutrient control is about input being balanced by output. For increased output, I skim heavily, use granulated activated carbon, some granulated ferric oxide , a chaetomorpha refguium and several cryptic refugia( rock in the dark or dim ambient light) some sand too. Despite all that it was necessary for me to jump into organic carbon dosing to maintain low nitrate and phospahte. The extra bacterial activity takes the inorganic nutrients and makes them organic,a food source and exportable by skimming.
Details on the system are here:

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/88-tank-of-the-month

 

[tmz]

There are some zaonthidae pixs in toward the end of the current sytem section. You can just click on the phot to enlarge it if you wish.

 

[tmz]

Here's post from an earlier thread a few years back on crgbon dosing that summarizes one study. There are others but I don't have them listed conveniently. Note while the study deals primarliiy with total organic carbon the sources used to increase the TOC are polymers and monomers, starches and sugars. There is one specific to glucose somewhere. iIf I find it I'll post a link:

<table id="post17225043" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="alt1" id="td_post_17225043" style="border-right: 1px solid #FFFFFF"> Role of elevated organic carbon levels and
microbial activity in coral mortality
http://phage.sdsu.edu/research/pdf/K...%205-24-06.pdf

From it:

"treatments that had significantly
greater mortality compared with controls
included 25 mg l–1 lactose (p < 0.001),
25 mg l–1 starch (p < 0.01), 25 mg l–1
galactose (p < 0.05), 12.5 mg l–1 glucose
(p < 0.05) and 25.0 mg l–1 glucose (p <
0.05). Organic carbon treatments
caused pathologies similar to those reported
for band diseases, with a progressive
loss of tissue starting at the colony
margins, as well as rapid sloughing of
coral tissue. Similar mortality patterns
due to DOC loading were also observed
in 4 previous culturing experiments
using a simpler culturing system in
Panama and Puerto Rico (data not
shown). Naturally occurring reef POM
caused significant bleaching of the corals
in both treatments (Fig. 1, p < 0.005)"


There explaination of why this occurs:

"DISCUSSION

DOC is a critical substrate for microbial growth.
Although many of the microbes associated with corals
are found in the mucus layer, much of the mucusassociated
carbon is in a refractory form that is not
available for microbial growth (Herndl & Velimirov
1986, Wild et al. 2004). Our observation that DOC
loading causes significant coral mortality and increasing
microbial growth rates by an order of magnitude
suggests that SML-associated microbes are carbonlimited.
The addition of simple sugars directly increases
the amount of labile DOC, and one possibility
is that it enables microbes to break down more complex
and previously unavailable carbon sources via
co-metabolism (Azam et al. 1993). Healthy corals
actively control the growth rate of their associated
microbes (Ducklow & Mitchell 1979, Breitbart et al.
2005), and DOC additions may disrupt the normal
mechanisms of control. Elevated microbial growth
rates likely cause coral death by oxygen depletion,
accumulation of poisons (e.g. hydrogen sulphide or
secondary metabolites) and/or microbial predation on
weakened coral polyps (Segel & Ducklow 1982).
Due to logistic limitations, microbial growth rate
experiments were only run for 26 h. With more time,
the microbial growth rates on the coral would likely
reach an equilibrium as the populations grew to a level
that the coral could no longer withstand. The explosive
growth after only 26 h suggests that high levels of DOC
rapidly disrupt the balance between the coral and its
associated microbes. In support of this hypothesis,
Kuntz et al. (2005) showed that continual exposure to
elevated DOC leads to an exponential increase in coral
mortality."



__________________
Cliff Babcock




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[A. Grandis]

You have a nice set up there! Congrats!

I didn't have time to see all links because I've been busy at work, but will try to take a look later...
I kinda think that with the set up you've got you shouldn't need to add vodka nor vinegar.
I would say that even the Chaetomorpha and the GFO could be skipped!
But if that's working for you ...
To play with bacteria population is kinda risky to me and you need to be very precise and dependable. That's a lot of work right there.

Thanks again!

Grandis.

 

[tmz]

Thanks,
No, I need organic carbon dosing because I feed a lot and keep over 40 fish . Sort of a quadruple bonus bonus for the corals. Lot's of food ,fishwaste and bacteria with low NO3 and PO4.
I've tried it without it and could not get the same results in terms of nutrient levels color ,growth and health. The advantage of using the other methods too is that it allows some reducncancy and a lower organic carbon dose than otherwise.I've been using vodka and vinegar it for 3.5 years and the tanks never looked better. Erhanol ( vodka) and vinegar( acetic acid )are basic carbon sources which end in acetate, a useful substance for living things. Vodka oxidizes to acetic acid( vinegar). Vinegar turns to acetae in water. So unless you ovrdose andcreate excess total organic carbon , a bacterial bloom or don't skim well it's not risky and not very hard to add afes capfuls per day.

 

[A. Grandis]

The excess of feeding could be the reason your zoas are growing fast and robust, besides the bacteria load. Have you thought about that?
How can we just attribute it to the bacteria alone? Very hard to know for sure.
They do eat bacteria, but it's hard to attribute the high bacteria population to the zoas health. I mean, I would think that bacteria would be only a supplementary food, as something we can find in their guts, but other particles and organisms as main energy source, besides from the zooxanthellae.
Much easier to see excess food, stable parameters and good light as the main reason for their success, I think.

Just my opinion. :thumbsup:

Grandis.

 

[tmz]

Yes, that's exactly right, water with plentiful zooplankton including: the bacteria , micro fuana which feed on bacteria and others as various larvae, sponge cells, ,light and low NO3 and PO4 similar to their natural environment . That combination can be achieved with organic carbon dosing and good skimming,ime.
The bacteria encouraged by the organic carbon take the inorganic nitrogen and phosphorus which don't skim out and convert them to organic forms as part of the bacteria's bodies and byproducts. They also get rid of some of the NO3 ,nitrate by using the oxygen when they are in anaerobic mode freeing the N to form N2 gas to bubble out of the water. The organic forms of nitrogen and phosphorous are put back in the food chain. Further they are skimmable; some have an affinity for granulated activated carbon.. Though I wouldn't call it excess feeding but healthy feeding for a high bioload system. It's also possible some zoanthidae particulary those with higher heterotrophic needs directly absorb some of the extra organic carbon or acetate.

When you get time to read the organic carbon dosing thread you'll see that I don't necessarily think this is best for everyone or every tank; it is not a panacea t ocover poor husbandy . It is,however, a very useful tool worthy of consideration and has helped my zonthidae quite a bit over the 3.5 years I've been doing it.

 

[A. Grandis]

I can see it's work! This is a strong and valuable consideration for the zoa's keeping, yes, but only if you feed an overloaded system, keeping in mind that you'll need to use a powerful skimmer in order to help remove the excess bacteria from the water. The balance is there. If there is too many bacteria we see the whitish cloud in the water. I'm sure you had that before after 3.5 years of experiences with the vodka. Many others did. :eek2:

Your system has a greater concentration of food input than others keeping less fishes per square inches (less food input). That could be interpreted as excess in some cases. We here will refer to "greater concentration" instead excess.

There is a limit for any system to work without crashing, if a great number of fishes are kept, a great number of food is introduced and one of the solutions would be the use of vodka. Another solution would be frequent partial water changes and even over skimming/GAC.

Your method, like all other people out there using vodka for reef systems, is a choice of food supply to the bacteria that, when stable and constant, works pretty well as a filtration method. Once more, I believe the method is basically to reduce nitrates and phosphates, like you've mentioned before. Therefore it's basically to emphasize the filtration of the system, when needed. I understood that. It's an amazing way to supply the needs. I'm glad it works s well!

The uptake of nutrients, by bacteria, gives you the by product of probably feeding the corals and zoanthids with the bacteria and the concentrated food in the system.


I've been keeping zoas for more than 15 years now and never paid too much attention to target feeding until about 2 years ago. Their response to target feeding is huge to me and it completes the need of the system as a whole, I believe. Same balance needs to be achieved here, input and output of nutrients. That's normal for any system.

One of the most important things we have to consider in zoa keeping is their necessity to the food particles, as ingested food, and absorption from the water. They need the supplementation of both for their optimal metabolism and many of us are still learning about that part. That along with light, water flow, temperature, filtration, etc...

I believe that, in your case, the zoas take advantage of the number of food particles introduced for the fish and they can receive that before bacteria acts.

Sure they can survive without food particles, but they do better when offered IME.


I really thank you tmz very much for sharing your experience with the method here and giving us so many information on the topic!!!! That's a great experience!! You have a great system there and colorful healthy organisms.

Hopefully others will come and share their experiences with vodka and zoas.

I'm sorry to Prince916 for hijacking the thread with so many questions about vodka and vinegar additions, but hope others were taking advantage of it to understand more about the topic, as I did.

Please let's go back to the "requirements for zoa/paly" original question, if that's the case. I want to hear from others about their own experiences also... :thumbsup:

Thanks again to you, tmz!!!
I had a great time and will continue to read about the topic and links when time allows! :beer:

Grandis.